IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[nako xl]

What?  Melo got robbed for rookie of the year.

Melo had a more well rounded offensive game than Lebron those first few years.  Melo's stats were comparable as well.

Then in 06-07 (Lebron's break out season with the playoff run) Melo was second in scoring to Kobe and was demolishing everyone who tried to guard him.

It was debatable.  Go watch the tapes of PTI/Around the Horn and those ESPN shows, and read the articles.  It WAS being debated.

Melo did get robbed his rookie year. After that though, it was plain as day.

04-05
Lebron 27 7 & 7 47% 35% from 3

Carmelo 20 5 & 2 on 43% and 26% from 3.

That's not debatable.

05-06

2005-06 DEN 80 36:47 9.5 19.7 48.1 0.5 1.9 24.3 7.2 8.9 80.8 1.5 3.4 4.9 2.7 2.7 1.1 0.5 2.9 26.5

2005-06 CLE 79 42:30 11.1 23.1 48.0 1.6 4.8 33.5 7.6 10.3 73.8 0.9 6.1 7.0 6.6 3.3 1.6 0.8 2.3 31.4

Again, that isn't debatable. Period point blank. I'm not even a stats guy but when they are this drastic as far as difference, they account for it. Lebron was far better than Melo and everybody else for that matter since his second season in the League.

why'd you stop at 05-06?

Lebron's always been the better passer and harder worker on defense.  Everything else was up for debate for a while.   People STILL think Melo's a better scorer and while the full season averages don't show it, Melo's court vision get praise too.

 

[ag 47]

He had the ref against the kings thats just me

GTFFOOHWTHS

 

[JD617]

You think I care about PTI/Around the Horn?

At one point in their careers, Melo had 6 game winners to Lebron's 1.

After Melo beat Bron in their first head to head on the Knicks and Heat Melo improved to 10-4 against Lebron James.

Shrug.  Hide your head in the sand all you want.  Google those numbers and see just how many people were discussing it. Yahoo, ESPN, blogs.  It was being debated.  On NT too.

Good for Melo and his 6 game-winners but that's not enough to outweigh LeBron being the better player by a significant margin.

And I couldn't care less about team records in head to head matchups. This is the same logic Deron fans used to throw out there to say he was better than CP3.

 

[darthska]

I've been tempted to make a "who's the more overrated Celtic: Rondo or KG" thread for the past two years.  Seeing as how Ska's letting this go I just might.

Do you guys not understand how polarizing a figure Kobe is?

A Rondo thread would be worthless. Ain't nobody hailing him higher than just being ranked among today's PGs.

A Garnett thread might have some legs, but nowhere near this.

Simply put, the critics CANNOT argue Kobe's 2013 All Star jacket patches, and his fans CANNOT argue that he has had some VERY talented company along his way.

Hell, you mentioned KG. Man, what could he have accomplished w/ Shaq and Phil and then Gasol and Phil? Yikes!The Spurs had twin towers in Duncan and David for what? 2 of their 4 chips? We would have had twin towers for like a decade. KG, w/ Shaq and Phil and then Gasol and Phil, has 1 ring today? Shiiiiiiiiii...

 

[nako xl]

You think I care about PTI/Around the Horn?

At one point in their careers, Melo had 6 game winners to Lebron's 1.

After Melo beat Bron in their first head to head on the Knicks and Heat Melo improved to 10-4 against Lebron James.

Shrug.  Hide your head in the sand all you want.  Google those numbers and see just how many people were discussing it. Yahoo, ESPN, blogs.  It was being debated.  On NT too.

Good for Melo and his 6 game-winners but that's not enough to outweigh LeBron being the better player by a significant margin.

And I couldn't care less about team records in head to head matchups. This is the same logic Deron fans used to throw out there to say he was better than CP3.

So what criteria are we using? raw per game averages and nothing else factored in?  Then DWill would be considered better than Cp3 for those years...

I'm not arguing that Melo is better than Lebron or that Dwill is better than paul.  I'm just showing you the type of arguments that have been used in here.  And how people jump on them when they support their beliefs but discredit them when they don't.  Confirmation bias.

 

[nako xl]

I've been tempted to make a "who's the more overrated Celtic: Rondo or KG" thread for the past two years.  Seeing as how Ska's letting this go I just might.

Do you guys not understand how polarizing a figure Kobe is?

A Rondo thread would be worthless. Ain't nobody hailing him higher than just being ranked among today's PGs.

A Garnett thread might have some legs, but nowhere near this.

Simply put, the critics CANNOT argue Kobe's 2013 All Star jacket patches, and his fans CANNOT argue that he has had some VERY talented company along his way.

Hell, you mentioned KG. Man, what could he have accomplished w/ Shaq and Phil and then Gasol and Phil? Yikes!The Spurs had twin towers in Duncan and David for what? 2 of their 4 chips? We would have had twin towers for like a decade. KG, w/ Shaq and Phil and then Gasol and Phil, has 1 ring today? Shiiiiiiiiii...

That 03-04 Timberwolves team wasn't loaded?  Didn't make the finals.

Shaq lost in 03-04 with a stacked team.  People say Kobe lost that series for them.  But had they won, "Shaq won it."

 

[darthska]

I know I'm gonna get flamed for this but next year: Harden>Wade>Kobe>>>

There is a zero percent chance that Wade will be better than Kobe next year, and even less than a zero percent chance that Harden will be better than Kobe.

C'mon, man. At least be reasonable.

 

[shoeking2101]

why'd you stop at 05-06?

Lebron's always been the better passer and harder worker on defense.  Everything else was up for debate for a while.  People STILL think Melo's a better scorer and while the full season averages don't show it, Melo's court vision get praise too.

I stopped at 05-06 because homie said it became clear that Lebron was better than melo in 06-07 and I said it's been that way since 04-05, which is true. Numbers just don't lie.

Honestly, that is true. Many people think Melo's the better scorer right now even though nothing supports that. Melo's court vision may be underrated but he's not even at 3 assist a game. For someone who's usage rate is so high, that is incredibly low.

Lebron, since 04-05, from a strictly factual vantage point, has scored at a higher clip, more efficiently, and has done so while being a much better rebounder, passer,and defender.

 

[darthska]

I've been tempted to make a "who's the more overrated Celtic: Rondo or KG" thread for the past two years.  Seeing as how Ska's letting this go I just might.

Do you guys not understand how polarizing a figure Kobe is?

A Rondo thread would be worthless. Ain't nobody hailing him higher than just being ranked among today's PGs.

A Garnett thread might have some legs, but nowhere near this.

Simply put, the critics CANNOT argue Kobe's 2013 All Star jacket patches, and his fans CANNOT argue that he has had some VERY talented company along his way.

Hell, you mentioned KG. Man, what could he have accomplished w/ Shaq and Phil and then Gasol and Phil? Yikes!The Spurs had twin towers in Duncan and David for what? 2 of their 4 chips? We would have had twin towers for like a decade. KG, w/ Shaq and Phil and then Gasol and Phil, has 1 ring today? Shiiiiiiiiii...

That 03-04 Timberwolves team wasn't loaded?  Didn't make the finals.

Shaq lost in 03-04 with a stacked team.  People say Kobe lost that series for them.  But had they won, "Shaq won it."

OK, that's one year.

'Bout 13, 14 more to go before I defer.

I expect your rebuttal to be any of the following: "Well it's not Kobe's fault", "KG wanted money, and lots of it. Crippled his chances", or "Do Truth and Jesus count?"

First response is missing the point. Second response sounds like a valid point... except if KG were a Laker, money is far less of an issue than in Minny, and of course Pierce and Ray count, so there's what? 4 more years of a quality cast... and that's pretending Doc is on Phil's level.

 

[darthska]

As much as you guys would like to believe Kobe lead hapless or average coaches of lackluster or even average rosters to championships, it didn't happen. Yes, EVERY championship in EVERY sport in the history of ever has had multiple stars and great coaches, but Kobe has had the fortune of being coached by the UNDISPUTABLE best coach in NBA history, and DISPUTABLY the most dominant player the league has ever seen.

To say that we won BECAUSE of Kobe with those two things in play is like having an EXCELLENTLY cooked meal in front of you and saying the meal was good because of one course, like the rest of the meal, aside from the course, was garbage. That could not POSSIBLY be further from the truth.

Yes, I get that it's frustrating to hear/read people say Kobe was no different than a Mehmet Okur or Steve Kerr or John Salley, but it's equally frustrating to hear/read folks try and paint the 2 pictures that Kobe carried a less-than-desirable Laker roster to championships, or that there's NO WAY we would have been successful with any of the other names mentioned. I can buy "Not as successful", but not to the point of 1 championship. Get real.

Shaq and Phil and 'Average NBA SG' win a championship, so any of the names listed that actually ARE/WERE talented scorers win more than 1.

But there's no way to prove that; just opinion. What's not opinion is that Kobe most definitely never carried a bunch of scrubs and a clueless coach to a championship, and it gets tired trying to hear people disrespect the talent surrounding him like that.

"Oh, so he didn't carry us that one game when..."

Man, look... the title of this thread has to do with his ENTIRE career, and you're going to talk about one game? Or a handful of games?

Dammit, I told myself I was done w/ this thread. Too much 'all or nothing' interpretations from both sides.

critic: Kobe had a LOOOOOT of help.

fan: Oh, so he sucks, then? He didn't contribute at ALL? (all or nothing thinking; disgusting)

fan: Man, Kobe is the GOODS. Look at his work ethic, the skill he puts into his craft.

critic: Oh, so now he's the greatest ever because he has fancy footwork and stays an extra hour after practice? (all or nothing thinking; disgusting)

 

[JD617]

The '03-'04 Wolves were "loaded"? Cassell was great that year, Sprewell was aging but still decent..... and that's about it.

Their most-used starting lineup was the following:

Cassell

Sprewell

Trenton Hassell

KG

Ervin Johnson

With Wally Sczernsodbndjksdb, Fred Hoiberg, Olowokandi, and Mark Madsen off the bench. That's "loaded"?

 

[cash money 1999]

There is a zero percent chance that Wade will be better than Kobe next year, and even less than a zero percent chance that Harden will be better than Kobe.

C'mon, man. At least be reasonable.

he's leading his team to the playoffs , unlike kobe.

26/6/5 and still getting use to being a leader on a team.......

is kobe better , yes......is it far fetched to think a rising harden exceeds declining kobe next year?

when he's doing right now.............stop it

i rode the kobe train for 15 years but i'll be damned if it clouds my judgement

 

[nako xl]

Ska... It's a "is Kobe bryant overrated" thread. The thread is founded on the premise that he wasn't THAT good. So the burden is automatically on people to argue how good he was. You can't get frustrated because YOU permitted/encouraged this

And to argue that Kobe never carried an average team full of scrubs to a championship to somehow discredit him, I'll reply, "name one player in league history that carried an average team full of scrubs to a ring. Name one."

 

[nako xl]

There is a zero percent chance that Wade will be better than Kobe next year, and even less than a zero percent chance that Harden will be better than Kobe. C'mon, man. At least be reasonable.

he's leading his team to the playoffs , unlike kobe.
26/6/5 and still getting use to being a leader on a team.......

is kobe better , yes......is it far fetched to think a rising harden exceeds declining kobe next year?
when he's doing right now.............stop it


i rode the kobe train for 15 years but i'll be damned if it clouds my judgement

Stop. Just stop.

 

[cash money 1999]

Stop. Just stop.

kobe and harden's statlines are both 26/6/5 , one is doing it on a playoff team one isn't

one will be turning 24 in the summer one will be turning 35 in the summer

kobe is the better individual scorer and defender but harden is playing better team basketball right

now and is still adjusting to being a leader after being thrown into a line up a week before the season

started , with a team FAR less talented than the lakers and still playing over .500 and in the playoff 

picture , unlike the declining kobe and struggling lakers.

 

[markangelo]

lol harden's first time as a starter, houston is the least inexperienced team in the league, houston only have 3 players from last year, harden's first time leading a team, 8th spot..

Kobe with a top 10 pg in nash, top center in Howard (even though he's still injured), a great inside presence in Gasol, and a top 10 perimeter defender in Metta...lol 10th seed.. 

 

[nako xl]

Gasol hasn't played.
Dwight has been injured all year.
Nash is 39 and has been injured all year.
Metta's a top 10 defender? In what league?

You're right. Kobe's 35 and still playing at an all NBA level with only the slightest sign of slowing down. The statement dude made is that Hardens better THIS year. He isn't. As for Harden being better next year? You're guessing. Dude hasn't even started an entire season yet. Would you bet your life on it? Stop it. Slow down.

 

[nako xl]

JD, that Timberwolves team was loaded.

I had typed a longer response with stats but I'm on my phone and it didn't post for some reason. I'll do it again when I get home.

 

[ill steelo]

why'd you stop at 05-06?

Lebron's always been the better passer and harder worker on defense.  Everything else was up for debate for a while

Like what?

Scoring? Bron has lead the league in scoring, avg'd 30, and shot 50% before.

Melo has done none of those.

The gap is even more noticeable in the playoffs.

 

[cash money 1999]

troy hudson 

 

[markangelo]

Nako, you wouldn't put Metta as a top 10 perimeter defender in the L? I was going to say Harden is better this year and the proof is in the pudding, but I wanted to give Kobe the benefit of the doubt cause for his age, playing at this level, is very uncanny..

 

[darthska]

[quote name="Nako XL"]The thread is founded on the premise that he wasn't THAT good. So the burden is automatically on people to argue how good he was.[/quote]Makes sense. [quote name="Nako XL"]You can't get frustrated because YOU permitted/encouraged this [/quote]Yeah, the "If you don't like it, lock it up" angle is absolutely not going to work. There's a Lakers thread that frustrates me, but it's not getting locked.[quote name="Nako XL"] And to argue that Kobe never carried an average team full of scrubs to a championship to somehow discredit him, I'll reply, "name one player in league history that carried an average team full of scrubs to a ring. Name one."[/quote]Right. But some of you guys are trying to say it had to be Kobe on all 5 of his championships. The only scenario that's true is on a team of scrubs.

 

[onetrust]

T-Mac never got out of the first round with home court advantage in the East. 

Just had to quote this cause I hate when people make up lies. Tmac, as the MAN, NEVER had home court in the East. GO back and check your NBA history. # 7 seed vs the Bucks, # 8 vs # 1 Detroit, and # 5 vs # 4 Hornets. Oooh let me guess, you're gonna act like that Hawks team he was on was "his" team right as if he wasn't coming off the bench or something. Nice try.

Shaq lost in 03-04 with a stacked team. People say Kobe lost that series for them. But had they won, "Shaq won it."

Ummm...Kobe was shooting a whopping 38% in the Finals...You serious? 38%!!!! Yet it's Shaq's fault they took the L. riiiight.

 

[nako xl]

you missed the point.

and i was going off memory, thought the magic had home court in that hornets series.  but fine.  mcgrady had home court in 07.  was the man.  still lost.

 

[menacin methods]

During the Lakers 3 peat Kobe was young and Shaq was in his prime. This duece dude is a joke, he keeps bringing up Robin. So what if Kobe was Robin? Dude helped Shaq get 3 rings, I mean Robin does help Batman fight crime right? I wonder what Shaq would say if someone told him that Kobe is overrated.

Jordan, Magic, Bird and Shaq would disagree with the haters. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.