Is it just the Jordan mystique that makes him the "undisputed" GOAT?

[osh kosh bosh]

Anyone who is a consumer of the game of basketball, and respects the history of the game should be insulted at the notion that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, and it is most certainly true that the "mystique" of Jordan plays a large part into prevailing public opinion of him and his legacy. There are players whos resumes of WINNING are just as good if not better (Russel, KAJ), there are players whos statistical PRODUCTION is just as good if not better so the idea that he should be handed the crown without question is absurd.

Jordan mystique is powerful and cannot be discounted and while it obviously exists partly because of his excellence ON the court, the media environment that he played in gives him a particular advantages compared to the other GOAT players in other eras.

1. The media was large enough to influence culture globally.
2. The group of people producing media was small enough where the message could still be controlled.
3. The consumers of the media had no way voicing divergent opinions.
4. Athletes and the advisers of athletes reached a level of consciousness about how to control it. 

These factors helped Jordan's legacy and because of the internet we will never see someone as highly regarded as Jordan. The spotlight shine on players brigter than ever and the flaws are BOUND to show through, LeBron's game has been picked apart thoroughly something that MJ  never had to withstand. His philandering and gambling and douche-!%*#!%% were not in the public consciousness becuase unlike LeBron he and nike can control the message, in a way that could NEVER happen today.

Even if LeBron wins 7 championships, puts up identical numbers to Jordan he will never be looked upon the same way, the way media works it's basically impossible to be a legend. Your FEATS may be legendary but ultimatley you will always be viewed as flawed...human, not some ultra competitive god of war view people have of Jordan.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Anyone who is a consumer of the game of basketball, and respects the history of the game should be insulted at the notion that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, and it is most certainly true that the "mystique" of Jordan plays a large part into prevailing public opinion of him and his legacy. There are players whos resumes of WINNING are just as good if not better (Russel, KAJ), there are players whos statistical PRODUCTION is just as good if not better so the idea that he should be handed the crown without question is absurd.

Jordan mystique is powerful and cannot be discounted and while it obviously exists partly because of his excellence ON the court, the media environment that he played in gives him a particular advantages compared to the other GOAT players in other eras.

1. The media was large enough to influence culture globally.
2. The group of people producing media was small enough where the message could still be controlled.
3. The consumers of the media had no way voicing divergent opinions.
4. Athletes and the advisers of athletes reached a level of consciousness about how to control it. 

These factors helped Jordan's legacy and because of the internet we will never see someone as highly regarded as Jordan. The spotlight shine on players brigter than ever and the flaws are BOUND to show through, LeBron's game has been picked apart thoroughly something that MJ  never had to withstand. His philandering and gambling and douche-!%*#!%% were not in the public consciousness becuase unlike LeBron he and nike can control the message, in a way that could NEVER happen today.

Even if LeBron wins 7 championships, puts up identical numbers to Jordan he will never be looked upon the same way, the way media works it's basically impossible to be a legend. Your FEATS may be legendary but ultimatley you will always be viewed as flawed...human, not some ultra competitive god of war view people have of Jordan.

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by Prostaffer

The issue is that it's hard to crown guys like Wilt, Bill, Kareem the GOAT because big men need someone to get them the ball. For a guard to dominate a big mans games is a sign of special talent.

the real issue is that no matter what anyone else has done or will do, a MJ lover will always find some reason or excuse why Jordan is better... If Lebron was to win 7 straight rings or even 8 or 9, it would just be the same things, MJ was more Determined, he didnt have as good a team as Lebron, Mj Loved the game more and had more heart, Lebron has Wade, Yadda Yadda Yadda... Kobe will always have the Shaq and Pau thing thrown in his face evn if he wins a couple more say if the Lakers get D. Howard. One more thing, i keep hearing Mj did things as a guard youve never seen anyone do, ok thats cool but there wasnt one PG like D. Rose back then, ive seen Rose do some amazing things athleticly that NO Pg's could do in Jordans day, Plus i think we can all agree that there wasnt Noone like Lebron back then, not even close to the way he's built and how he plays both ends.. Nba is way more talented nowadays by far...

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by Prostaffer

The issue is that it's hard to crown guys like Wilt, Bill, Kareem the GOAT because big men need someone to get them the ball. For a guard to dominate a big mans games is a sign of special talent.

the real issue is that no matter what anyone else has done or will do, a MJ lover will always find some reason or excuse why Jordan is better... If Lebron was to win 7 straight rings or even 8 or 9, it would just be the same things, MJ was more Determined, he didnt have as good a team as Lebron, Mj Loved the game more and had more heart, Lebron has Wade, Yadda Yadda Yadda... Kobe will always have the Shaq and Pau thing thrown in his face evn if he wins a couple more say if the Lakers get D. Howard. One more thing, i keep hearing Mj did things as a guard youve never seen anyone do, ok thats cool but there wasnt one PG like D. Rose back then, ive seen Rose do some amazing things athleticly that NO Pg's could do in Jordans day, Plus i think we can all agree that there wasnt Noone like Lebron back then, not even close to the way he's built and how he plays both ends.. Nba is way more talented nowadays by far...

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Anyone who is a consumer of the game of basketball, and respects the history of the game should be insulted at the notion that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, and it is most certainly true that the "mystique" of Jordan plays a large part into prevailing public opinion of him and his legacy. There are players whos resumes of WINNING are just as good if not better (Russel, KAJ), there are players whos statistical PRODUCTION is just as good if not better so the idea that he should be handed the crown without question is absurd.

Jordan mystique is powerful and cannot be discounted and while it certainly is obviously exits becuase of his excellence ON the court, the media environment that he played in gives him a particular advantage compared to the other GOAT players in there era. Jordan was the best player in an era where he had several unique advantages.

1. The media was large enough to influence culture globally.
2. The group of people producing media was small enough where the message could still be controlled.
3. The consumers of the media had no way voicing divergent opinions.
4. Athletes and the advisers of ahtletes reached a level of ocnciousness about how to control it. 

These factors helped Jordan's legacy and because of the internet we will never see someone as highly regarded as Jordan. The spotlight shine on players brigter than ever and the flaws are BOUND to show through, LeBron's game has been picked apart thoroughly something that MJ  never had to withstand. His philandering and gambling and douche-+!##!!* were not in the public consciousness becuase unlike LeBron he and nike can control the message, in a way that could NEVER happen today.

Even if LeBron wins 7 championships, puts up identical numbers to Jordan he will never be looked upon the same way, the way media works it's basically impossible to be a legend. Your FEATS may be legendary but ultimatley you will always be viewed as flawed...human, not some ultra competitive god of war view people have of Jordan.

THIS QFT

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Anyone who is a consumer of the game of basketball, and respects the history of the game should be insulted at the notion that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, and it is most certainly true that the "mystique" of Jordan plays a large part into prevailing public opinion of him and his legacy. There are players whos resumes of WINNING are just as good if not better (Russel, KAJ), there are players whos statistical PRODUCTION is just as good if not better so the idea that he should be handed the crown without question is absurd.

Jordan mystique is powerful and cannot be discounted and while it certainly is obviously exits becuase of his excellence ON the court, the media environment that he played in gives him a particular advantage compared to the other GOAT players in there era. Jordan was the best player in an era where he had several unique advantages.

1. The media was large enough to influence culture globally.
2. The group of people producing media was small enough where the message could still be controlled.
3. The consumers of the media had no way voicing divergent opinions.
4. Athletes and the advisers of ahtletes reached a level of ocnciousness about how to control it. 

These factors helped Jordan's legacy and because of the internet we will never see someone as highly regarded as Jordan. The spotlight shine on players brigter than ever and the flaws are BOUND to show through, LeBron's game has been picked apart thoroughly something that MJ  never had to withstand. His philandering and gambling and douche-+!##!!* were not in the public consciousness becuase unlike LeBron he and nike can control the message, in a way that could NEVER happen today.

Even if LeBron wins 7 championships, puts up identical numbers to Jordan he will never be looked upon the same way, the way media works it's basically impossible to be a legend. Your FEATS may be legendary but ultimatley you will always be viewed as flawed...human, not some ultra competitive god of war view people have of Jordan.

THIS QFT

 

[higherthanthemonument]

Originally Posted by Prostaffer

You don't think that if Delonte West did MJ's mom he wouldn't have dunked on all 5 celtics and made sure Delonte was in the way to make it 6?

Cold Blooded...That ain't Bron, but that's ok.

 

[higherthanthemonument]

Originally Posted by Prostaffer

You don't think that if Delonte West did MJ's mom he wouldn't have dunked on all 5 celtics and made sure Delonte was in the way to make it 6?

Cold Blooded...That ain't Bron, but that's ok.

 

[prostaffer]

Originally Posted by daiernchef

Originally Posted by Prostaffer

The issue is that it's hard to crown guys like Wilt, Bill, Kareem the GOAT because big men need someone to get them the ball. For a guard to dominate a big mans games is a sign of special talent.

the real issue is that no matter what anyone else has done or will do, a MJ lover will always find some reason or excuse why Jordan is better... If Lebron was to win 7 straight rings or even 8 or 9, it would just be the same things, MJ was more Determined, he didnt have as good a team as Lebron, Mj Loved the game more and had more heart, Lebron has Wade, Yadda Yadda Yadda... Kobe will always have the Shaq and Pau thing thrown in his face evn if he wins a couple more say if the Lakers get D. Howard. One more thing, i keep hearing Mj did things as a guard youve never seen anyone do, ok thats cool but there wasnt one PG like D. Rose back then, ive seen Rose do some amazing things athleticly that NO Pg's could do in Jordans day, Plus i think we can all agree that there wasnt Noone like Lebron back then, not even close to the way he's built and how he plays both ends.. Nba is way more talented nowadays by far...

I'm with you on the Lebron thing...IF...he pulls off 6 straight or does something gaudy then it might not be an argument.

The kobe thing however...

MJ isn't shooting like that in a Game 7...ever.

  

 

[prostaffer]

Originally Posted by daiernchef

Originally Posted by Prostaffer

The issue is that it's hard to crown guys like Wilt, Bill, Kareem the GOAT because big men need someone to get them the ball. For a guard to dominate a big mans games is a sign of special talent.

the real issue is that no matter what anyone else has done or will do, a MJ lover will always find some reason or excuse why Jordan is better... If Lebron was to win 7 straight rings or even 8 or 9, it would just be the same things, MJ was more Determined, he didnt have as good a team as Lebron, Mj Loved the game more and had more heart, Lebron has Wade, Yadda Yadda Yadda... Kobe will always have the Shaq and Pau thing thrown in his face evn if he wins a couple more say if the Lakers get D. Howard. One more thing, i keep hearing Mj did things as a guard youve never seen anyone do, ok thats cool but there wasnt one PG like D. Rose back then, ive seen Rose do some amazing things athleticly that NO Pg's could do in Jordans day, Plus i think we can all agree that there wasnt Noone like Lebron back then, not even close to the way he's built and how he plays both ends.. Nba is way more talented nowadays by far...

I'm with you on the Lebron thing...IF...he pulls off 6 straight or does something gaudy then it might not be an argument.

The kobe thing however...

MJ isn't shooting like that in a Game 7...ever.

  

 

[Girl Thats Jules]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by Girl thats Jules

Originally Posted by CP1708

I know the if game is slippery, but I brought it up for a reason.  I wasn't asking for Magic to get an extra 3-4 years "as" Magic.  Certainly he would start to decline, as we are seeing with Kobe. 
And I did think of the 2 years of baseball, however, not the same thing. 

MJ plays in 94 and 95, Maaaaaaybe they squeak both those out.  I would say safely 94 coulda been a title, I dunno about 95.  Not because Mike wasn't great, but because nobody is gonna go 5 years straight without bodies breakin down.  Look at Scottie in 98.  He was wearing down big time.  Now go back and add a couple extra series/months on his body back in 94 and 95, how his body lookin?  So while Mike may have gone 4-4 or maybe even 5-5 straight, it would have taken away from his game in 97-98.  Not just him, but Scottie as well.  Hell, maybe even Phil if you really want to split hairs.  An extra month or two off probably did him some good in 94-95. 

Magic what ifs, I only ask for 92 as an elite Magic, and the next 2-3 years as just solid Magic.  Like I said, second or maybe third rounds, extra 12-15 playoff games, but not the 22-24 type deep runs anymore.  92 is the year that haunts me.  The Lakers MO was get beat, adjust, come back the next year.  They lost in 81, came back with a title in 82.  Lost in 83 and 84, title in 85.  Lost in 86, title in 87 and 88.  They got swept out in 89, and Kareem had retired, so they were down in 90, but came back strong in 91, just came up short.  They got beat because Phil put Pip on Magic, and no other Laker could handle the ball.  Enter, Sedalle Threatt for the 92 season.  He would have helped Magic off the ball or on the ball if Pip was used against Magic again.  It would have freed them up more, and add another year to Divac's development, as well as Elden Campbell, they had a real good shot at coming back in 92 for a second go-rouund. 
Do they win?  Who knows?  Maybe they don't, maybe they do.  I'm just throwin out theories, but history showed us how things had gone for Magic, if he had one more elite year and a couple extra solid ones, he could have closed the gap on Mike.  Hell, maybe Mike don't get bored and retire in 94, who knows how the dominoes fall?  But Nov 91 changed the NBA for the worse no matter how you slice it.  It robbed us of some historical work that coulda been done all around, not just one team or one guy. 

*shrugs* 

You asked for a legit argument, gave you all I got man. 

  

jordan still goes ape @(#* on that lakers defense

look at the numbers he put up against the knicks in '92

and the numbers he put on clyde drexler in '92

im not saying clyde was a great defender but he had to guard him on the other end which should have wore him down a lil right?

but it didnt.


sedale threat couldnt stop jordan. look what mike did to xavier mcdaniel,gerald wilkins,and john starks. it aint happenin




plus to top it off, the best team of all of mikes championship teams was the '92 team.

go do your research, they are always regarded as his best team. even over his 72 win team.





even if magic would have continued to play in 92 he wouldnt have closed any type of gap. he wasnt winning the mvp that year or a championship.




no matter how 92 unfolds, the lakers are done.

Let the grown folks talk.  Move along. 

 at do your research. 

 

grown folks?

im sure im older than about 95% of this thread.  sorry im not older than you, but your 43 years old arguing on a sneaker forum wit 22 year olds.


and you're a laker stan. you dont know anything about the NBA.

you can continue to think that the '92 lakers would have won the championship. i wont say anything.

 

[Girl Thats Jules]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by Girl thats Jules

Originally Posted by CP1708

I know the if game is slippery, but I brought it up for a reason.  I wasn't asking for Magic to get an extra 3-4 years "as" Magic.  Certainly he would start to decline, as we are seeing with Kobe. 
And I did think of the 2 years of baseball, however, not the same thing. 

MJ plays in 94 and 95, Maaaaaaybe they squeak both those out.  I would say safely 94 coulda been a title, I dunno about 95.  Not because Mike wasn't great, but because nobody is gonna go 5 years straight without bodies breakin down.  Look at Scottie in 98.  He was wearing down big time.  Now go back and add a couple extra series/months on his body back in 94 and 95, how his body lookin?  So while Mike may have gone 4-4 or maybe even 5-5 straight, it would have taken away from his game in 97-98.  Not just him, but Scottie as well.  Hell, maybe even Phil if you really want to split hairs.  An extra month or two off probably did him some good in 94-95. 

Magic what ifs, I only ask for 92 as an elite Magic, and the next 2-3 years as just solid Magic.  Like I said, second or maybe third rounds, extra 12-15 playoff games, but not the 22-24 type deep runs anymore.  92 is the year that haunts me.  The Lakers MO was get beat, adjust, come back the next year.  They lost in 81, came back with a title in 82.  Lost in 83 and 84, title in 85.  Lost in 86, title in 87 and 88.  They got swept out in 89, and Kareem had retired, so they were down in 90, but came back strong in 91, just came up short.  They got beat because Phil put Pip on Magic, and no other Laker could handle the ball.  Enter, Sedalle Threatt for the 92 season.  He would have helped Magic off the ball or on the ball if Pip was used against Magic again.  It would have freed them up more, and add another year to Divac's development, as well as Elden Campbell, they had a real good shot at coming back in 92 for a second go-rouund. 
Do they win?  Who knows?  Maybe they don't, maybe they do.  I'm just throwin out theories, but history showed us how things had gone for Magic, if he had one more elite year and a couple extra solid ones, he could have closed the gap on Mike.  Hell, maybe Mike don't get bored and retire in 94, who knows how the dominoes fall?  But Nov 91 changed the NBA for the worse no matter how you slice it.  It robbed us of some historical work that coulda been done all around, not just one team or one guy. 

*shrugs* 

You asked for a legit argument, gave you all I got man. 

  

jordan still goes ape @(#* on that lakers defense

look at the numbers he put up against the knicks in '92

and the numbers he put on clyde drexler in '92

im not saying clyde was a great defender but he had to guard him on the other end which should have wore him down a lil right?

but it didnt.


sedale threat couldnt stop jordan. look what mike did to xavier mcdaniel,gerald wilkins,and john starks. it aint happenin




plus to top it off, the best team of all of mikes championship teams was the '92 team.

go do your research, they are always regarded as his best team. even over his 72 win team.





even if magic would have continued to play in 92 he wouldnt have closed any type of gap. he wasnt winning the mvp that year or a championship.




no matter how 92 unfolds, the lakers are done.

Let the grown folks talk.  Move along. 

 at do your research. 

 

grown folks?

im sure im older than about 95% of this thread.  sorry im not older than you, but your 43 years old arguing on a sneaker forum wit 22 year olds.


and you're a laker stan. you dont know anything about the NBA.

you can continue to think that the '92 lakers would have won the championship. i wont say anything.