I don't know much about the Israel/Palestine conflict, but I do know a sonning

[kien]

Originally Posted by DubA169

the underlying ROOT of the problem is that the entire world hates jews and doesn't know what to do with them. 

that's quite a generalization.

i guess i'm the only person in the "entire world" that doesnt hate jews.

 

[fatherless child]

^thank you kien. This guy DubA seems to think the world revolves around people not liking Jews. It's funny because ironicaly, the same can be said about the Palestinians.

 

[fatherless child]

^thank you kien. This guy DubA seems to think the world revolves around people not liking Jews. It's funny because ironicaly, the same can be said about the Palestinians.

 

[duba169]

^ it's not a generalization it's recorded history. that's exactly why the jews ended up in Palestine. they are hated everywhere around the world. there are only 15-20 million that exist.

After WWII nobody knew what to do with teh Jews. No country wanted to take them in. america didn't all of them. Europe didn't want all of them. The British put them in the middle east.

people look at the last 60 years and think they know everything about the scope of the situation. that's not how it works. the israel/palestine problem is all about the solution to the Jews

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by Fatherless Child

^thank you kien. This guy DubA seems to think the world revolves around people not liking Jews. It's funny because ironicaly, the same can be said about the Palestinians.

READ
A
BOOK

 

[kien]

Originally Posted by DubA169

^ it's not a generalization it's recorded history. that's exactly why the jews ended up in Palestine. they are hated everywhere around the world. there are only 15-20 million that exist.

After WWII nobody knew what to do with teh Jews. No country wanted to take them in. america didn't all of them. Europe didn't want all of them. The British put them in the middle east.

people look at the last 60 years and think they know everything about the scope of the situation. that's not how it works. the israel/palestine problem is all about the solution to the Jews

these statements seem to be rather ironic considering the message of diversity portrayed through your avy

quite honestly man, you can think whatever the hell you want, im not forced to respect it, but i will respect the fact that everyone will be subject to their own opinions.  i don't see any gains/advantages in changing your viewpoints nor do i see it as an easy task to do as you seem rather steadfast in your views.

as for me, im just going to accept and love all people regardless of history and all of that nonsense, and hopefully there's a number of people that feel the same sentiment in hopes of the world not being a cold dead place...it may sound like a "hippie" mindset or what have you, but hell, the world would sure damn be better if everyone thought this way

 

[hovkid]

Everyone hates the Jews?

Is that cause we got all the money? 

 

[kicktionair]

Originally Posted by HOVKid

Everyone hates the Jews?

Is that cause we got all the money? 

Let me get some

On a serious note; If I were to convert and become Jewish...... will I get the moneys?

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by kien

Originally Posted by DubA169

^ it's not a generalization it's recorded history. that's exactly why the jews ended up in Palestine. they are hated everywhere around the world. there are only 15-20 million that exist.

After WWII nobody knew what to do with teh Jews. No country wanted to take them in. america didn't all of them. Europe didn't want all of them. The British put them in the middle east.

people look at the last 60 years and think they know everything about the scope of the situation. that's not how it works. the israel/palestine problem is all about the solution to the Jews

these statements seem to be rather ironic considering the message of diversity portrayed through your avy

quite honestly man, you can think whatever the hell you want, im not forced to respect it, but i will respect the fact that everyone will be subject to their own opinions.  i don't see any gains/advantages in changing your viewpoints nor do i see it as an easy task to do as you seem rather steadfast in your views.

as for me, im just going to accept and love all people regardless of history and all of that nonsense, and hopefully there's a number of people that feel the same sentiment in hopes of the world not being a cold dead place...it may sound like a "hippie" mindset or what have you, but hell, the world would sure damn be better if everyone thought this way

jesus christ you don't get it. it's not about individual people randomly hating Jews. historically jews are not safe in the majority of countries around the world. they are blamed for jesus getting killed, the boubonic plague, economic problems. the mob mentality they are used as scapegoats for political purposes which turns into mob mentality.

The governments in those countries did nothing to protect them. which leads to a mob mentality when it comes to hating jews.

If you don't want to learn history then so be it. whatever. it's not a generalization. i'm talking about recorded events that took place for thousand sof years!

over a billion muslims
over a billion christians
about 500,000,000 buddhists
15-20 million jews (many of which are prominent members of society)

they have been treated a certain way over the course of history which led to the founding of israel which is what the thread is about

 

[xtapolapacetl]

This just proves that Judaism and zionism are two different things. The very pro-Israeli biased American media want you to think otherwise: that being anti-zionist is synonymous with being anti-Semitic and equal to Hitler, but that's not true.

Another prominent Jewish anti-zionist is Jonathan Shapiro from South Africa, one of the world's famous political cartoonists..

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by DubA169

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by DubA169

and what happens when the self determination lads to more rocket attacks? what happens then? i don't care if the rockets only hit 1 person they were intended to kill many. they are learning to hate and kill jews in the schools. that won't change overnight if they get some land back.
  

Sorry, misread your sentences here.

That is really unlikely to happen. If Palestinians were to get their land back, terrorist groups like Hamas would have to disarm, dismantle or fusion into only strictly becoming a political group and not a terrorist guerilla group at all.

i disagree. once they get some land back they will inevitably want Jerusalem.(which i think should be shared by all 3 religions but won't happen)

they don't want israel to exist. they consider every single piece of land "theirs" not just 1967 borders. and liek i said if they get land back they will still be killing each other. when israel recently had that massive attack (which was an overreaction) hammas members were killing fatah members in the tsreets, i mean the notion that everybody in palestine will become brother and sister and stop the fighting is complete hogwash.

it's an extreemly difficult sistuation, i don't know what to do anymore. for the record Netanyahu is a piece of *#$% and does nothing for the peace process

They'll want EAST Jerusalem as a capitol, yes. This is because that part of Jerusalem is being occupied by the Israelis as well. No matter how people try to justify it, it's still under occupation because it is part of the West Bank.

You're speaking in VERY broad terms. Who is "they?" All Palestinians do not think the same, just like all Israelis don't, just like all Americans don't etc etc. If you're speaking about minority radical groups, then yes you're right. If you're speaking for a majority of Palestinians then you're completely wrong. Segments of Hamas have even lightened their stance on the existence of Israel.

Also, Hamas and Fatah were killing one another because Hamas, as well as many other Palestinians, view Fatah as corrupt and doing as Israel and the United States wish, which evidence shows they do. Fatah tried to undermine the democratic victory of Hamas in Gaza as did Israel and many other countries in the world, yet we all say that we "favor democracy."

Also, I think you should change "hates" to "hated" in your argument. Even though that's still a bit extreme because everyone (again, a very broad term) did not in fact hate the Jewish people, there was a great deal of Anti-Semitic feeling in Europe which no doubt had an impact on certain leaders choice to back a Jewish state.

i didn't justify anything. i said it was an overreaction and that thecurrent prime minister is a piece of ##$%.  BUT. if no rockets arelaunched the overreation never happens

the conflict isn't one sided. which most of you don't want to admit.
And if the illegal occupation of the West Bank didn't continue as well as the sealing off of Gaza (even prior to what happened in 2008-9), countless checkpoints and other deterrents to the everyday lives of Palestinians then you wouldn't have rocket attacks. The conflict, as of the present time, is indeed pretty one sided.

I cannot wait to see Finkelstein speak tomorrow, should be awesome.

 

[mo matik]

I feel like at this point, the reasoning and history behind the Israel Palestine conflict is deflection.

This is not to say that it isn't important that we understand the history behind the conflict.  It's just that I don't think it's required for the necessary peace at the moment.

DubA is right, one can easily make the argument that Europe has a significantly greater history of Anti-Semitism in Europe than in the Middle East, or any other part of the world for that matter. 

That being said, why the burden of giving homes to the Jewish community fell solely on the Palestinian people still doesn't make sense.  But like I said, I don't feel it's important.

Even the early wars and defeat, who cares at this point.  Now it's a human rights issue.  That should take priority over whatever history took place in the region.

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

I feel like at this point, the reasoning and history behind the Israel Palestine conflict is deflection.

This is not to say that it isn't important that we understand the history behind the conflict.  It's just that I don't think it's required for the necessary peace at the moment.

DubA is right, one can easily make the argument that Europe has a significantly greater history of Anti-Semitism in Europe than in the Middle East, or any other part of the world for that matter. 



Even the early wars and defeat, who cares at this point.  Now it's a human rights issue.  That should take priority over whatever history took place in the region.

i agree with everything you said but the history will always play a part. because the Jews would never be there if it wasn;t for History

AR I am being broad because I don't want to spend even more time trying to educate people on HOW the situation got to where it did, it's frustrating to read a thread about israel every month and have 90% of the people speak about a subject they don't know. most of NT has this idea in their head that a bunch of jews walked into the dessert with the backing of america, killed a mess of arabs and took their homes. meanwhile you know it's an incredibly complex issue. America was never the cause of israel. their influence came after.


"That being said, why the burden of giving homes to the Jewish communityfell solely on the Palestinian people still doesn't make sense.  Butlike I said, I don't feel it's important."\

dude i totally agree and aknowledge that the palestinians besically got screwed over because of the atrocities of Europe. 110% agree. and yes it's a shame and i don't know what the hell we do about it. I rarely have opptomistic days anymore.



you, Zik, AR, and hazleeyed honey seem to be the only ones that have knowledge on the subject. i'll have a real discussion any day

 

[vintage sole 737]

Originally Posted by Kicktionair

Chick's head was about to explode

.gif pleases

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by DubA169

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

I feel like at this point, the reasoning and history behind the Israel Palestine conflict is deflection.

This is not to say that it isn't important that we understand the history behind the conflict.  It's just that I don't think it's required for the necessary peace at the moment.

DubA is right, one can easily make the argument that Europe has a significantly greater history of Anti-Semitism in Europe than in the Middle East, or any other part of the world for that matter. 



Even the early wars and defeat, who cares at this point.  Now it's a human rights issue.  That should take priority over whatever history took place in the region.

i agree with everything you said but the history will always play a part. because the Jews would never be there if it wasn;t for History

AR I am being broad because I don't want to spend even more time trying to educate people on HOW the situation got to where it did, it's frustrating to read a thread about israel every month and have 90% of the people speak about a subject they don't know. most of NT has this idea in their head that a bunch of jews walked into the dessert with the backing of america, killed a mess of arabs and took their homes. meanwhile you know it's an incredibly complex issue. America was never the cause of israel. their influence came after.


"That being said, why the burden of giving homes to the Jewish communityfell solely on the Palestinian people still doesn't make sense.  Butlike I said, I don't feel it's important."\

dude i totally agree and aknowledge that the palestinians besically got screwed over because of the atrocities of Europe. 110% agree. and yes it's a shame and i don't know what the hell we do about it. I rarely have opptomistic days anymore.

I mean, if you REALLY look at it a great deal of it rests on Americas shoulders. Britain was trying to limit Jewish immigration to Palestine later on but due to pressure from the United States they had to lift these quotas because we realized we didn't want to take on another few million highly educated individuals who would compete with Americans for jobs.

They did actually kill a mess of Arabs, expel them from their homes, and in turn take their homes though. I do agree a lot of people here don't know much about the subject.

you, Zik, AR, and hazleeyed honey seem to be the only ones that haveknowledge on the subject. i'll have a real discussion any day
That.

Look at it this way, if Native Americans were to come to your home,kick you out and say it's justified because this land belonged to theirancestors and they were persecuted. How would you feel? Would you justleave or would you fight to defend what's yours?
Such extremely different situations, not to say that what we did to the Native Americans was any better because it wasn't. It was nothing short of ethnic cleansing as well. However at the time that was sadly accepted. It's the 20th/21st Century and things like simply cannot be allowed to happen. I know, it's a ridiculous argument, but it's the truth. We realized how wrong we were for what was done to the Native Americans and International Laws were created to make sure that nothing of that nature happened again because it was vile.

 

[gucci mane]

Look at it this way, if Native Americans were to come to your home, kick you out and say it's justified because this land belonged to their ancestors and they were persecuted. How would you feel? Would you just leave or would you fight to defend what's yours?

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by DubA169

the ROOT of the cause is that England basically gave 2 distinct set of people land and left them to kill each other for it.

the underlying ROOT of the problem is that the entire world hates jews and doesn't know what to do with them. is it fair to Palestinians? no. but there are a billion muslims out there and only 15 million jews. that's why jews are so gung ho about israel. because we truly feel that if the world can turn on us at any moment. we don't trust the rest of the world for a second. so you wana talk about the will to fight? they will get there land back? good +!$@@$+ luck with that. where is syria, saudi arabia? egypt? where are they to help their bothers and sisters?

i can't wait for a 2 state solution. how long until hammas kills all the members of fatah in the street? how long before the rockets get sent into israel because they want MORE of "their" land huh?

But what the British did was did and done. What can be done now about the mess they created? The 1967 borders are still occupied and under international law Israel needs give it back. That is what is at the root of today's Palestinian population and the Palestinian diaspora, the occupation.

The whole word does not hate Jewish people. That is again a very generalized and blaspemous statement. If anything, most of the world does view the state of Israel like they view the United States government for its bullying and policies that violate international human rights and law. What do you expect? The Palestinians as the oppressed and the ones who are occupied. Most will back the defenseless and victims of occupation or suffrance.

As far as for the other Arab countries, its people are behind the Palestinian people, but the governments are not. Don't think us Palestinians are expecting them to come to our rescue. So, why should we care for them. Yes, there are other Arab countries, but why should I forget about the land of my ancestors and go to another Arab country? THere are 26 Spanish speaking countries, so does that make a Mexican have not as much of a right to Mexico anymore if they get occupied by the U.S. and then so to hell with them and let them go to other Spanish speaking countries that they do not see as their homeland and not their nationality? Palestinians have the right to self-determiation and sovereignty just as much as any others peoples in the world, whether some like it or not.

Doubt Israel can be as much of a Jewish state as it wants to be. The Palestinian minority in Israel will in a couple of generations be just as much populated as the Jews. The Palestinian demographic is a ticking time bomb. 


  

 

[essential1]

Palestine & Israel are both wrong when it comes to the conflict... But those who say they are "Pro-Israel" advocate a position that is anti-peace and will continue the war. Which hurts Israel pretty damn bad.. Both sides need to compromise and at some point our government for one needs to make that happen. And not blindly follow one side because they are our ally when as an ally they smack us in the face every chance they get. Palestine needs to denounce violence as much as possible, not to say Palestine is the 100% instigator but they need to denounce violence as does Israel.

We will probably never have peace, but I for one, would like someone to come at this situation with a level head and not a blinded view.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by DubA169

i disagree. once they get some land back they will inevitably want Jerusalem.(which i think should be shared by all 3 religions but won't happen)

they don't want israel to exist. they consider every single piece of land "theirs" not just 1967 borders. and liek i said if they get land back they will still be killing each other. when israel recently had that massive attack (which was an overreaction) hammas members were killing fatah members in the tsreets, i mean the notion that everybody in palestine will become brother and sister and stop the fighting is complete hogwash.

it's an extreemly difficult sistuation, i don't know what to do anymore. for the record Netanyahu is a piece of *#$% and does nothing for the peace process.

Jerusalem should be an internationa city in the sense that it should be for Jews, Christians, and Muslims because of the significance it holds to the three monotheistic faiths.

You keep claiming that Arabs do not want Israel to exist. That can be true. But, do you think that maybe also some Jews do not want Palestine to exist? At least Israel exists. I doubt in any way as it stands that Israel will be annihilated, whether some like it or not.  

I think that when Israel follows International Law, when it abides by the U.N. Security Council Resolutions (such as how others nations are also forced to), when it abides by its commitments to the IV Geneva Convention and the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights and stop the occupation, then the conflict will stop. You keep saying Palestinians want more than 1967 borders, well the Palestinians agreed to the "Road Map" and the accords signed at Taba, Egypt. It was in fact Israel that pulled out. Israel is breaking the law, not the Palestinians when it comes to land. Palestinians are not occupying (illegally) and all Israel has to do is obey international law. That's it, no concessions, nothing, just obey International Law, and then groups like Hamas can cease to exist. Their main formation was due to the occupation. Everything else after can fall into place.

 

[lalakerfan213]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

I cannot wait to see Finkelstein speak tomorrow, should be awesome.

Where?

 

[daytona 5000]

why people say jews like they are an ethnic group though?

 

[duba169]

Hazeleyed Honey wrote:

Doubt Israel can be as much of a Jewish state as it wants to be. The Palestinian minority in Israel will in a couple of generations be just as much populated as the Jews. The Palestinian demographic is a ticking time bomb.
  

definitely. that's a huge problem. that's why i was pissed off with what just happened with the new settlements. especially on the day the VP comes.

I don't see anything positive happening with israel's current prime minister. Plus Obama got his hands full at the moment. I don't think he will go heavy into the peace process anymore until he gets reelected. (i think he will go all in eventually if reelected)

and when i'm defending israel i'm defending it's right to exist from here on out. the ways and means it was created aren't perfect but i sincerely belive there needs to be a place for Jews to reside if +*%$ really hits the fan again. Israel does all type of messed up stuff. i don't think you give palestinians land and things are nice and peachy after. but i can't find any other way.

It's not like all the residents is israel are gonna willingly give them land. I'm sure no prime minister wants to be Yitzhak Rabin #2. it's just SUCH a messed up situation that doesn't seem like it will be solved

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by LALAKERFAN213

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

I cannot wait to see Finkelstein speak tomorrow, should be awesome.

Where?

Brooklyn College.

I don't see anything positive happening with israel's current primeminister. Plus Obama got his hands full at the moment. I don't think hewill go heavy into the peace process anymore until he gets reelected.(i think he will go all in eventually if reelected)

I disagree, there have already been rumblings in the government that the U.S. is trying to come up with something to present to both parties since they can't be brought to the table because of the new homes being constructed in East Jerusalem. I feel like if he does try something and gets results it may in fact help him in the next election since we'll be seeing some of the "change" in foreign policy he talked about while campaigning which has been completely nonexistent so far.

You bring up a HUGE issue. The Israeli government is structured so awkwardly that even the slightest deviation in policy can lead to a call for elections and an even harsher right wing government placed in power.

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

why people say jews like they are an ethnic group though?

well Hitler called for annihilation of the Jewish race. In the speech his words are translated specifically as race.

Wenn es dem internationalen Finanzjudentum in undaußerhalb Europas gelingen sollte, die Völker noch einmalin einen Weltkrieg zu stürzen, dann wird das Ergebnis nicht derSieg des Judentums sein, sondern die Vernichtung der jüdischenRasse in Europa!

translated to

If the international finance-Jewry inside and outside Europeshould succeed in plunging the nations into a world war yet again,then the outcome will not be the victory of Jewry, but rather theannihilation of the Jewish Race in Europe!

he basically elevated Jews to the status of an ethnic group. he made them a specific ethnic group with all the propaganda depictions of a Jew. went beyond religion and right into physical features.


And it just stuck.

 

[mo matik]

they don't want israel to exist. they consider every single piece of land "theirs" not just 1967 borders. and liek i said if they get land back they will still be killing each other.



Look up what happened at the Taba Summit.

The BEST most fair option ever presented, widely accepted by the international community as well as Palestine was turned down by Israel.