How good is Monta Ellis really?

[proshares]

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

Originally Posted by Proshares

I don't see how an efficiency chart can be all that doesn't use FGA, FGM, FT's in it's computation. I find it extremely hard to believe that LeBron is not in the top 50 for most efficient players in the league.

Bron is #2 using the NBA formula, the link Jumpman posted is guards only.  Where are you seeing the actual computations, I can't find them.

I just noticed that it was guards only, my mistake.  I'm just going off the fact that those are the only stats that they had lined up with EFF.  Maybe they are.  I'm to the ESPN one where they list all the sub-stats first and then list the computed PER.

 

[JD617]

Link?

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...n.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?position=sg

 

[JD617]

Link?

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...n.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?position=sg

 

[proshares]

Check out the current PER:

[table][tr][td][/td][/tr][/table]

[table][tr][td]1[/td][td]
Dwyane Wade[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 25.52
League Average Comparison: +10.52
Projected PER: 26.31
2009-10 PER: 28.10
+ High-scoring slasher with unbelievable quickness and knack for drawing fouls.
+ Willing passer but erratic jump shooter. Will lose handle on the drive.
Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]2[/td][td]
Kobe Bryant[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 24.58
League Average Comparison: +9.58
Projected PER: 21.07
2009-10 PER: 21.94
+ Big, ruthless wing who plays over the top of most defenders. Creates shots at will.
+ Strong, competitive defender who likes to float on weak side. Good reb ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]3[/td][td]
Manu Ginobili[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 23.09
League Average Comparison: +8.09
Projected PER: 20.70
2009-10 PER: 22.54
+ Daring, crafty lefty who takes odd angles to create contact and draw fouls.
+ Handles and passes like a point guard; will hit set shot off catch or dribble. ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]4[/td][td]
Kevin Martin[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 22.64
League Average Comparison: +7.64
Projected PER: 17.32
2009-10 PER: 17.08
+ Remarkably efficient shooter despite unorthodox, left-leaning delivery off hip.
+ Excels at drawing fouls with fantastic shot fake, but rarely creates for o ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]5[/td][td]
Eric Gordon[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 20.89
League Average Comparison: +5.89
Projected PER: 15.31
2009-10 PER: 14.15
+ Sweet-shooting guard with quick, compact release.
+ Good ballhandler with powerful frame, but lacks quick burst to attack rim.
+ Very poor rebounder. H ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]6[/td][td]
Monta Ellis[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 20.23
League Average Comparison: +5.23
Projected PER: 17.17
2009-10 PER: 16.74
+ Super quick guard who loves to push tempo and finish in transition.
+ Defensive ball hawk but gambles too much and lacks size for two.
+ Mediocre outsi ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]7[/td][td]
Ray Allen[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 18.49
League Average Comparison: +3.49
Projected PER: 14.10
2009-10 PER: 15.22
+ Ranks among best shooters ever; deadly off screens and money from line.
+ Lacks quickness and length but good ballhandler and passer.
+ Respectable ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]8[/td][td]
Joe Johnson[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 17.97
League Average Comparison: +2.97
Projected PER: 17.98
2009-10 PER: 19.33
+ Excellent midrange shooter with size, strength to play over top of most defenses. + Handles ball like a point guard but lacks quick burst to penetrate and creat ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]9[/td][td]
Jason Richardson[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 17.61
League Average Comparison: +2.61
Projected PER: 15.88
2009-10 PER: 16.63
+ Long-distance shooter with great elevation; among best when shooting off catch.
+ High jumper, but usually needs a two-foot takeoff. Poor lateral movement o ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]10[/td][td]
Vince Carter[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 16.69
League Average Comparison: +1.69
Projected PER: 14.95
2009-10 PER: 17.11
+ Still a plus athlete with good elevation on jumper and explosion near rim. + Good driver who can create shots without turnovers, but too often settles for J ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]11[/td][td]
Leandro Barbosa[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 16.47
League Average Comparison: +1.47
Projected PER: 14.38
2009-10 PER: 14.05
+ Among fastest players in league end-to-end; loves to streak up left side on break.
+ Accurate long-range shooter despite odd release but has terrible court ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]12[/td][td]
Andre Iguodala[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 16.38
League Average Comparison: +1.38
Projected PER: 17.47
2009-10 PER: 17.82
+ Elite athlete with great first step, superb strength and explosive finishing skills.
+ Has size, strength and quickness to be elite defender. Outstanding re ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]13[/td][td]
Nick Young[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 16.15
League Average Comparison: +1.15
Projected PER: 10.89
2009-10 PER: 10.71
+ Slender, one-on-one scorer who can elevate for mid-range J. Good shooter.
+ Can't see floor at all and high handle makes him prone to turnovers.
+ Leap ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]14[/td][td]
J.R. Smith[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 15.88
League Average Comparison: +0.88
Projected PER: 15.77
2009-10 PER: 15.15
+ Talented scorer with unlimited shooting range and ability to finish at rim. + Might have league's worst shot selection. Can get wildly out of control on drive ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]15[/td][td]
Jason Terry[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 15.03
League Average Comparison: +0.03
Projected PER: 15.68
2009-10 PER: 16.58
+ Ace jump-shooter off bench who excels off catch or going to right off dribble.
+ Can run point successfully but instincts are as a scorer. Rarely goes to ri ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][/table]

 

[proshares]

Check out the current PER:

[table][tr][td][/td][/tr][/table]

[table][tr][td]1[/td][td]
Dwyane Wade[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 25.52
League Average Comparison: +10.52
Projected PER: 26.31
2009-10 PER: 28.10
+ High-scoring slasher with unbelievable quickness and knack for drawing fouls.
+ Willing passer but erratic jump shooter. Will lose handle on the drive.
Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]2[/td][td]
Kobe Bryant[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 24.58
League Average Comparison: +9.58
Projected PER: 21.07
2009-10 PER: 21.94
+ Big, ruthless wing who plays over the top of most defenders. Creates shots at will.
+ Strong, competitive defender who likes to float on weak side. Good reb ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]3[/td][td]
Manu Ginobili[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 23.09
League Average Comparison: +8.09
Projected PER: 20.70
2009-10 PER: 22.54
+ Daring, crafty lefty who takes odd angles to create contact and draw fouls.
+ Handles and passes like a point guard; will hit set shot off catch or dribble. ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]4[/td][td]
Kevin Martin[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 22.64
League Average Comparison: +7.64
Projected PER: 17.32
2009-10 PER: 17.08
+ Remarkably efficient shooter despite unorthodox, left-leaning delivery off hip.
+ Excels at drawing fouls with fantastic shot fake, but rarely creates for o ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]5[/td][td]
Eric Gordon[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 20.89
League Average Comparison: +5.89
Projected PER: 15.31
2009-10 PER: 14.15
+ Sweet-shooting guard with quick, compact release.
+ Good ballhandler with powerful frame, but lacks quick burst to attack rim.
+ Very poor rebounder. H ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]6[/td][td]
Monta Ellis[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 20.23
League Average Comparison: +5.23
Projected PER: 17.17
2009-10 PER: 16.74
+ Super quick guard who loves to push tempo and finish in transition.
+ Defensive ball hawk but gambles too much and lacks size for two.
+ Mediocre outsi ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]7[/td][td]
Ray Allen[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 18.49
League Average Comparison: +3.49
Projected PER: 14.10
2009-10 PER: 15.22
+ Ranks among best shooters ever; deadly off screens and money from line.
+ Lacks quickness and length but good ballhandler and passer.
+ Respectable ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]8[/td][td]
Joe Johnson[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 17.97
League Average Comparison: +2.97
Projected PER: 17.98
2009-10 PER: 19.33
+ Excellent midrange shooter with size, strength to play over top of most defenses. + Handles ball like a point guard but lacks quick burst to penetrate and creat ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]9[/td][td]
Jason Richardson[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 17.61
League Average Comparison: +2.61
Projected PER: 15.88
2009-10 PER: 16.63
+ Long-distance shooter with great elevation; among best when shooting off catch.
+ High jumper, but usually needs a two-foot takeoff. Poor lateral movement o ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]10[/td][td]
Vince Carter[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 16.69
League Average Comparison: +1.69
Projected PER: 14.95
2009-10 PER: 17.11
+ Still a plus athlete with good elevation on jumper and explosion near rim. + Good driver who can create shots without turnovers, but too often settles for J ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]11[/td][td]
Leandro Barbosa[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 16.47
League Average Comparison: +1.47
Projected PER: 14.38
2009-10 PER: 14.05
+ Among fastest players in league end-to-end; loves to streak up left side on break.
+ Accurate long-range shooter despite odd release but has terrible court ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]12[/td][td]
Andre Iguodala[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 16.38
League Average Comparison: +1.38
Projected PER: 17.47
2009-10 PER: 17.82
+ Elite athlete with great first step, superb strength and explosive finishing skills.
+ Has size, strength and quickness to be elite defender. Outstanding re ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]13[/td][td]
Nick Young[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 16.15
League Average Comparison: +1.15
Projected PER: 10.89
2009-10 PER: 10.71
+ Slender, one-on-one scorer who can elevate for mid-range J. Good shooter.
+ Can't see floor at all and high handle makes him prone to turnovers.
+ Leap ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]14[/td][td]
J.R. Smith[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 15.88
League Average Comparison: +0.88
Projected PER: 15.77
2009-10 PER: 15.15
+ Talented scorer with unlimited shooting range and ability to finish at rim. + Might have league's worst shot selection. Can get wildly out of control on drive ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][tr][td]15[/td][td]
Jason Terry[/td][td]
2010-11 Current PER: 15.03
League Average Comparison: +0.03
Projected PER: 15.68
2009-10 PER: 16.58
+ Ace jump-shooter off bench who excels off catch or going to right off dribble.
+ Can run point successfully but instincts are as a scorer. Rarely goes to ri ... Complete Profile[/td][/tr][/table]

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

That's always been the problem with ST, too many dumbies running around speaking on teams and players they get to see maybe once or twice a season on ESPN.

And I don't need the NBA's formula to tell me he's one of the most efficient guards in the league because I see it with my own eyes every night.

I was in LA when the Lakers were in Oakland last week, Stu Lantz (who I generally can't stand) seems to agree that Monta is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, he said it himself during the broadcast.

Ever heard of observer bias? 
I have nothing against him, I enjoy watching him play, Ellis and the emergence of Curry was one of the reasons I purchased league pass.
And the best all-encompassing efficiency statistic is Hollinger's PER. Granted, it's just another tool to evaluate a players production, but it accounts for pace, minutes, field goal type, etc. 

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

That's always been the problem with ST, too many dumbies running around speaking on teams and players they get to see maybe once or twice a season on ESPN.

And I don't need the NBA's formula to tell me he's one of the most efficient guards in the league because I see it with my own eyes every night.

I was in LA when the Lakers were in Oakland last week, Stu Lantz (who I generally can't stand) seems to agree that Monta is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, he said it himself during the broadcast.

Ever heard of observer bias? 
I have nothing against him, I enjoy watching him play, Ellis and the emergence of Curry was one of the reasons I purchased league pass.
And the best all-encompassing efficiency statistic is Hollinger's PER. Granted, it's just another tool to evaluate a players production, but it accounts for pace, minutes, field goal type, etc. 

 

[chrome vapors]

So he's #6 according to PER and #2 according to the NBA (just read the wiki on PER and it does sound like a better formula).

My original point remains, he's a very efficient scorer. Can we all agree on that?

 

[chrome vapors]

So he's #6 according to PER and #2 according to the NBA (just read the wiki on PER and it does sound like a better formula).

My original point remains, he's a very efficient scorer. Can we all agree on that?

 

[acidicality]

No matter whose efficiency you trust, fact is Monta isn't just a chucker/volume scorer like some of you are implying. 

 

[acidicality]

No matter whose efficiency you trust, fact is Monta isn't just a chucker/volume scorer like some of you are implying. 

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

Uh maybe NBA.com's player efficiency ratings? derr, derr, derr

Never heard of PER?

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

Uh maybe NBA.com's player efficiency ratings? derr, derr, derr

Never heard of PER?

 

[chrome vapors]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

That's always been the problem with ST, too many dumbies running around speaking on teams and players they get to see maybe once or twice a season on ESPN.

And I don't need the NBA's formula to tell me he's one of the most efficient guards in the league because I see it with my own eyes every night.

I was in LA when the Lakers were in Oakland last week, Stu Lantz (who I generally can't stand) seems to agree that Monta is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, he said it himself during the broadcast.

Ever heard of observer bias?
And the best all-encompassing efficiency statistic is Hollinger's PER. Granted, it's just another tool to evaluate a players production, but it accounts for pace, minutes, field goal type, etc. 

Observer bias > unwavering ignorance

I just don't understand how someone who doesn't watch him play can really comment. Not saying that's you or anyone in particular but I know not everyone outside of the GS market is streaming his games and stuff.

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

Uh maybe NBA.com's player efficiency ratings? derr, derr, derr

Never heard of PER?

NBA.com was better for my case

 

[chrome vapors]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

That's always been the problem with ST, too many dumbies running around speaking on teams and players they get to see maybe once or twice a season on ESPN.

And I don't need the NBA's formula to tell me he's one of the most efficient guards in the league because I see it with my own eyes every night.

I was in LA when the Lakers were in Oakland last week, Stu Lantz (who I generally can't stand) seems to agree that Monta is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, he said it himself during the broadcast.

Ever heard of observer bias?
And the best all-encompassing efficiency statistic is Hollinger's PER. Granted, it's just another tool to evaluate a players production, but it accounts for pace, minutes, field goal type, etc. 

Observer bias > unwavering ignorance

I just don't understand how someone who doesn't watch him play can really comment. Not saying that's you or anyone in particular but I know not everyone outside of the GS market is streaming his games and stuff.

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

Uh maybe NBA.com's player efficiency ratings? derr, derr, derr

Never heard of PER?

NBA.com was better for my case

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by JumpmanFromDaBay

Kevin Martin?

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by JumpmanFromDaBay

Kevin Martin?

 

[jumpmanfromdabay]

Originally Posted by acidicality

No matter whose efficiency you trust, fact is Monta isn't just a chucker/volume scorer like some of you are implying. 

but you know like 75% on here have seen only 1 or 2 Warrior games.

 

[jumpmanfromdabay]

Originally Posted by acidicality

No matter whose efficiency you trust, fact is Monta isn't just a chucker/volume scorer like some of you are implying. 

but you know like 75% on here have seen only 1 or 2 Warrior games.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

That's always been the problem with ST, too many dumbies running around speaking on teams and players they get to see maybe once or twice a season on ESPN.

And I don't need the NBA's formula to tell me he's one of the most efficient guards in the league because I see it with my own eyes every night.

I was in LA when the Lakers were in Oakland last week, Stu Lantz (who I generally can't stand) seems to agree that Monta is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, he said it himself during the broadcast.

Ever heard of observer bias?
And the best all-encompassing efficiency statistic is Hollinger's PER. Granted, it's just another tool to evaluate a players production, but it accounts for pace, minutes, field goal type, etc. 

Observer bias > unwavering ignorance

Uh okay? How is that pertinent? I already said him and Curry was one of the reasons I purchased league pass. Everything I know and see leads me to place him somewhere outside the top 20-25 players in the league.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

That's always been the problem with ST, too many dumbies running around speaking on teams and players they get to see maybe once or twice a season on ESPN.

And I don't need the NBA's formula to tell me he's one of the most efficient guards in the league because I see it with my own eyes every night.

I was in LA when the Lakers were in Oakland last week, Stu Lantz (who I generally can't stand) seems to agree that Monta is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, he said it himself during the broadcast.

Ever heard of observer bias?
And the best all-encompassing efficiency statistic is Hollinger's PER. Granted, it's just another tool to evaluate a players production, but it accounts for pace, minutes, field goal type, etc. 

Observer bias > unwavering ignorance

Uh okay? How is that pertinent? I already said him and Curry was one of the reasons I purchased league pass. Everything I know and see leads me to place him somewhere outside the top 20-25 players in the league.

 

[chrome vapors]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

That's always been the problem with ST, too many dumbies running around speaking on teams and players they get to see maybe once or twice a season on ESPN.

And I don't need the NBA's formula to tell me he's one of the most efficient guards in the league because I see it with my own eyes every night.

I was in LA when the Lakers were in Oakland last week, Stu Lantz (who I generally can't stand) seems to agree that Monta is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, he said it himself during the broadcast.

Ever heard of observer bias?
And the best all-encompassing efficiency statistic is Hollinger's PER. Granted, it's just another tool to evaluate a players production, but it accounts for pace, minutes, field goal type, etc. 

Observer bias > unwavering ignorance

Uh okay? How is that pertinent?

In the same  way observer bias is pertinent.

 

[chrome vapors]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by chrome vapors

That's always been the problem with ST, too many dumbies running around speaking on teams and players they get to see maybe once or twice a season on ESPN.

And I don't need the NBA's formula to tell me he's one of the most efficient guards in the league because I see it with my own eyes every night.

I was in LA when the Lakers were in Oakland last week, Stu Lantz (who I generally can't stand) seems to agree that Monta is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, he said it himself during the broadcast.

Ever heard of observer bias?
And the best all-encompassing efficiency statistic is Hollinger's PER. Granted, it's just another tool to evaluate a players production, but it accounts for pace, minutes, field goal type, etc. 

Observer bias > unwavering ignorance

Uh okay? How is that pertinent?

In the same  way observer bias is pertinent.

 

[chrome vapors]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

 I already said him and Curry was one of the reasons I purchased league pass. Everything I know and see leads me to place him somewhere outside the top 20-25 players in the league.

Don't try and play me son, you edited that in there.

Just like I edited my post and said I wasn't talking about you in particular.

 

[chrome vapors]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

 I already said him and Curry was one of the reasons I purchased league pass. Everything I know and see leads me to place him somewhere outside the top 20-25 players in the league.

Don't try and play me son, you edited that in there.

Just like I edited my post and said I wasn't talking about you in particular.