Breaking Bad, Mad Men, The Wire, and The Sopranos - An analysis by Chuck Klosterman

[agentarenas]

He makes a great point. I feel like i need to go back and rewatch Breaking Bad but I just cant find the time. In terms of personal enjoyment - Breaking Bad is last on my list, with the wire and the sopranos sharing the top spot in different respects, and mad men after. Mad Men might not be a stronger show than BB, but I find myself engrossed in the era being presented and that aspect of it is what makes it more enjoyable for me. Similarly I found myself loving Boardwalk Empire. Im looking forward to the return of BB this week and seeing where they decide to take it.

 

[agentarenas]

He makes a great point. I feel like i need to go back and rewatch Breaking Bad but I just cant find the time. In terms of personal enjoyment - Breaking Bad is last on my list, with the wire and the sopranos sharing the top spot in different respects, and mad men after. Mad Men might not be a stronger show than BB, but I find myself engrossed in the era being presented and that aspect of it is what makes it more enjoyable for me. Similarly I found myself loving Boardwalk Empire. Im looking forward to the return of BB this week and seeing where they decide to take it.

 

[marvel man]

Of the several episodes of breaking bad Ive seen so far I'm impressed its a great show.

 

[marvel man]

Of the several episodes of breaking bad Ive seen so far I'm impressed its a great show.

 

[ooiron manoo]

Originally Posted by JoeGalvan

ill read it later... i like Klosterman and most of Simmons' roster on Grantland.

but Breaking Bad... nah son. its a really good show.... but the acting is extremely overrated and the story arc is super-predictable. plus, its characters turn heel on themselves multiple times a season. their personalities flip-flop so much just to make the the plot more interesting... it reeks of lazy writing. couple that with the poor acting from many main characters, terrible dialogue...

matter fact... *+%$ this article. it doesnt deserve my time.


breaking bad... lol.

hell... even the brother in law that was the most bout-it FBI agent you ever saw... turned into a bedridden vagina for a season.


my point is this. he says... the characters "choices" are battles with personal morality. in breaking bad, this is absolutely wrong. they arent built up that way. they setup a character on a path, and then they make a sharp left for the sake of the story/plot.

its like taking a shark out of water and putting it on a motorcyle. then being like, "hey that was the sharks choice. sharks ride bikes all the time."

if it were a question of morality, Cranston's character would be happy to be cancer-free with millions in duffle bags and ride off into the sunset. he wouldnt be killing mexicans and cooking dump trucks worth of ice under a laundromat. and the show wouldve ended 2 seasons ago.


thats the difference. shows like the Wire and Sopranos made decisions based on the harsh realities of the world they were depicting. shows like Breaking Bad make decisions based on what will 'shake things up'

go ahead and compare Breaking Bad to Weeds... leave HBO out of this.

I disagree with you whole heartedly.  I will not even rate these shows in order since I've only completely watched Mad Men and Breaking Bad.  I have one season of the Sopranos and The Wire under my belt.

I don't defend shows like they are my mother like some person, I agree with the article on that point.

cranston was a family man who needed to pay cancer bills. now he is a millionaire killing machine.
jesse was a dope cooking dropout banging other peoples wives. now he's a chemist with a heart of gold.
the wife was a loving, support system for cranston. now she launders money and despises her criminal husband, while banging her criminal boss.
You are simplifying the characters way too much, and I think that is what the article gets at, morally every character has flaws.

For example Walter initially goes into the business to support his families future, he even calculates how much he will need.  "Killing machine" at what point.  They kill Emilio and Crazy 8 by accident, and then proceed to dispose of the bodies using chemistry.  If anything Walt realizes Jesse's shortcomings, which makes the audience sympathetic to Walt.  Then they kill Tuco, their intent was to distance themselves from Tuco.  In then end they just shot Tuco, Hank killed him.  Walt also kills the two gangsters because he knew Jesse isn't capable, and is more likely to trip over his own feet.  Although he constantly belittles Jesse, throughout the show, Walt stands up for him.  Kind of like a father.

You really feel sympathetic for Walt, unless you just want to be a cynic.

For example when he initially rejects Gus, he was out.  He got his money and he was in remission.  Then he found out his wife was smashing her boss, and he used it as a vehicle to get back in the business.  When Jesse talks to him with excitment, Walt responds dryly in a "We have work to do" tone, and tells him he's in remission it can come back.

Every bad thing Walt has done can be justified with the "He had to do it", of course he didn't have to but that's the sense you get and it makes you root for him to keep "winning".

If you want my assessment of Skyler and Jesse click the spoilers

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler [+]

Spoiler

Jesse is a *+%@ up, point blank.  His ambition far exceeds his intelligence and often gets ahead of himself without thinking.  Walt is tough on him, too tough at times, but there were many points where I felt like throwing *$%% at the tv while seeing Jesse's face on screen

.  His heart is in the right place and he often let's his emotions take over.  I don't buy the heart of gold stuff, his heart just pumps kool aid.  So even though he is trying to avenge Combo's death, he's too big of a *#+%# to pull the trigger.  Walt knows this so he runs those fools over (That scene is

btw).  That is why the Season 3 finale was such a cliffhanger, because no one knew if Jesse pulled the trigger.  It was Jesse's turn to step up and take out Gale since Walt's life was on the line.  Although they are at each others throats, Walt knows he can trust Jesse and vice versa....from the beginning 50/50 partners.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler [+]

Spoiler

Skyler initially started up as the caring housewife that was forced to return to work in order to pay bills.  It wasn't until later that we found out that she was also morally conflicted and it started when she began to doubt Walt.  It crumbled her world and she made the decision to "Break Bad", she started covering up for her boss and banging him too.  She didn't know the other phone was to contact Jesse, she thought it was for other purposes.  Which is the sentiment a lot of males share, if you let a woman's mind and imagination wander it will $!*+$#$ wander.  It's frustrating that she gives Walt the "10th degree" while she has her skeletons in her own closet.  She did Walt dirty, and I'm sure the majority would agree that she has become a villain.  Towards the end of Season 3 she started getting involved in Walt's business ventures, so maybe that will flip how people feel about Skyler. 

 

[ooiron manoo]

Originally Posted by JoeGalvan

ill read it later... i like Klosterman and most of Simmons' roster on Grantland.

but Breaking Bad... nah son. its a really good show.... but the acting is extremely overrated and the story arc is super-predictable. plus, its characters turn heel on themselves multiple times a season. their personalities flip-flop so much just to make the the plot more interesting... it reeks of lazy writing. couple that with the poor acting from many main characters, terrible dialogue...

matter fact... *+%$ this article. it doesnt deserve my time.


breaking bad... lol.

hell... even the brother in law that was the most bout-it FBI agent you ever saw... turned into a bedridden vagina for a season.


my point is this. he says... the characters "choices" are battles with personal morality. in breaking bad, this is absolutely wrong. they arent built up that way. they setup a character on a path, and then they make a sharp left for the sake of the story/plot.

its like taking a shark out of water and putting it on a motorcyle. then being like, "hey that was the sharks choice. sharks ride bikes all the time."

if it were a question of morality, Cranston's character would be happy to be cancer-free with millions in duffle bags and ride off into the sunset. he wouldnt be killing mexicans and cooking dump trucks worth of ice under a laundromat. and the show wouldve ended 2 seasons ago.


thats the difference. shows like the Wire and Sopranos made decisions based on the harsh realities of the world they were depicting. shows like Breaking Bad make decisions based on what will 'shake things up'

go ahead and compare Breaking Bad to Weeds... leave HBO out of this.

I disagree with you whole heartedly.  I will not even rate these shows in order since I've only completely watched Mad Men and Breaking Bad.  I have one season of the Sopranos and The Wire under my belt.

I don't defend shows like they are my mother like some person, I agree with the article on that point.

cranston was a family man who needed to pay cancer bills. now he is a millionaire killing machine.
jesse was a dope cooking dropout banging other peoples wives. now he's a chemist with a heart of gold.
the wife was a loving, support system for cranston. now she launders money and despises her criminal husband, while banging her criminal boss.
You are simplifying the characters way too much, and I think that is what the article gets at, morally every character has flaws.

For example Walter initially goes into the business to support his families future, he even calculates how much he will need.  "Killing machine" at what point.  They kill Emilio and Crazy 8 by accident, and then proceed to dispose of the bodies using chemistry.  If anything Walt realizes Jesse's shortcomings, which makes the audience sympathetic to Walt.  Then they kill Tuco, their intent was to distance themselves from Tuco.  In then end they just shot Tuco, Hank killed him.  Walt also kills the two gangsters because he knew Jesse isn't capable, and is more likely to trip over his own feet.  Although he constantly belittles Jesse, throughout the show, Walt stands up for him.  Kind of like a father.

You really feel sympathetic for Walt, unless you just want to be a cynic.

For example when he initially rejects Gus, he was out.  He got his money and he was in remission.  Then he found out his wife was smashing her boss, and he used it as a vehicle to get back in the business.  When Jesse talks to him with excitment, Walt responds dryly in a "We have work to do" tone, and tells him he's in remission it can come back.

Every bad thing Walt has done can be justified with the "He had to do it", of course he didn't have to but that's the sense you get and it makes you root for him to keep "winning".

If you want my assessment of Skyler and Jesse click the spoilers

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler [+]

Spoiler

Jesse is a *+%@ up, point blank.  His ambition far exceeds his intelligence and often gets ahead of himself without thinking.  Walt is tough on him, too tough at times, but there were many points where I felt like throwing *$%% at the tv while seeing Jesse's face on screen

.  His heart is in the right place and he often let's his emotions take over.  I don't buy the heart of gold stuff, his heart just pumps kool aid.  So even though he is trying to avenge Combo's death, he's too big of a *#+%# to pull the trigger.  Walt knows this so he runs those fools over (That scene is

btw).  That is why the Season 3 finale was such a cliffhanger, because no one knew if Jesse pulled the trigger.  It was Jesse's turn to step up and take out Gale since Walt's life was on the line.  Although they are at each others throats, Walt knows he can trust Jesse and vice versa....from the beginning 50/50 partners.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler [+]

Spoiler

Skyler initially started up as the caring housewife that was forced to return to work in order to pay bills.  It wasn't until later that we found out that she was also morally conflicted and it started when she began to doubt Walt.  It crumbled her world and she made the decision to "Break Bad", she started covering up for her boss and banging him too.  She didn't know the other phone was to contact Jesse, she thought it was for other purposes.  Which is the sentiment a lot of males share, if you let a woman's mind and imagination wander it will $!*+$#$ wander.  It's frustrating that she gives Walt the "10th degree" while she has her skeletons in her own closet.  She did Walt dirty, and I'm sure the majority would agree that she has become a villain.  Towards the end of Season 3 she started getting involved in Walt's business ventures, so maybe that will flip how people feel about Skyler. 

 

[koudie from brooklyn]

Originally Posted by AME416

[h3]

Breaking Bad beats The Sopranos

[/h3]

 

lol 

 

[koudie from brooklyn]

Originally Posted by AME416

[h3]

Breaking Bad beats The Sopranos

[/h3]

 

lol 

 

[hymen man]

I agree with Chuck.

Though I can't put BB ahead of the Wire or Sopranos just yet... if they continue on the bath they are, it just might pass them. I know thats a bold statement, but that's how much I love this show. It gives you everything you need to be entertained. I simply cannot wait for Sunday.

 

[hymen man]

I agree with Chuck.

Though I can't put BB ahead of the Wire or Sopranos just yet... if they continue on the bath they are, it just might pass them. I know thats a bold statement, but that's how much I love this show. It gives you everything you need to be entertained. I simply cannot wait for Sunday.

 

[maldonado]

I read it..



and agree.


been done tryna told ya.


BREAKING BAD>

 

[maldonado]

I read it..



and agree.


been done tryna told ya.


BREAKING BAD>

 

[seymore cake]

I came back just like I said I would after I calmed down and I read through it. 

I feel as though he painted Wire fans perfectly

However I believe he short changed the wire some specifically because of what you stated here

Originally Posted by Big J 33

The Wire's social commentary, ability to change it's focus each season, and incredibly developed characters puts it as 1A for me. The Sopranos' being the first show that was truly successful commercially and critically on cable as it was cannot go overlooked. Without The Sopranos, modern TV is radically different. And beyond that, the issues they hit on as well, whether it be family, crime, and Tony's transformation is superb, add great acting, writing, music, it's just the total package, and I would say it's 1B.

The Wire was the most realistic and it's portrayal of numerous issues facing Baltimore and our country as a whole separates it from the rest. And the Sopranos ability to combine great acting, developed characters, music, directing, and essentially give you the cinematic experience on your TV for 6 seasons was an innovation for TV and influential to everything that's come after it.

He attempted to downplay how realistic the show was by saying the characters didn't exist, however anyone who's spent any significant time in any area the Wire focused on can tell you that while the names are different those characters certainly exist.  No other show has painted such a realistic depiction of the pilliars of our society let alone go in depth to show how they all relate to each other and are in fact similiar games played on different courts.  So while the setting is Baltimore, The Wire isn't a central to Baltimore, its actually America's story and this is the fact that I see soooo many individuals ignore when they go to compare a show to it or attempt to discredit its greatness. 

The same things they showed happening on The Wire in Season's 1, 3, 4 goes on in all Major Cities, Chicago, Atl, NYC, Mia, LA even your Detroit, Gary In, Buffalo Ny etc in terms of industries failing jobs drying up and people turning to other means (Season 2).  The deterioration of the mdeia the increased sensationalism (Season 5) is going on everywhere. The same can't be said for Breaking Bad the closest thing would be The Soprano's in terms of realism.

As far as character development

The Wire has it in Drones from Kima to Michael, Naymond to D'angelo, Bubs to Prez...You'd be hard pressed to find more of it during a show.  So Yea... The Wire is just on a different level.

 

[seymore cake]

I came back just like I said I would after I calmed down and I read through it. 

I feel as though he painted Wire fans perfectly

However I believe he short changed the wire some specifically because of what you stated here

Originally Posted by Big J 33

The Wire's social commentary, ability to change it's focus each season, and incredibly developed characters puts it as 1A for me. The Sopranos' being the first show that was truly successful commercially and critically on cable as it was cannot go overlooked. Without The Sopranos, modern TV is radically different. And beyond that, the issues they hit on as well, whether it be family, crime, and Tony's transformation is superb, add great acting, writing, music, it's just the total package, and I would say it's 1B.

The Wire was the most realistic and it's portrayal of numerous issues facing Baltimore and our country as a whole separates it from the rest. And the Sopranos ability to combine great acting, developed characters, music, directing, and essentially give you the cinematic experience on your TV for 6 seasons was an innovation for TV and influential to everything that's come after it.

He attempted to downplay how realistic the show was by saying the characters didn't exist, however anyone who's spent any significant time in any area the Wire focused on can tell you that while the names are different those characters certainly exist.  No other show has painted such a realistic depiction of the pilliars of our society let alone go in depth to show how they all relate to each other and are in fact similiar games played on different courts.  So while the setting is Baltimore, The Wire isn't a central to Baltimore, its actually America's story and this is the fact that I see soooo many individuals ignore when they go to compare a show to it or attempt to discredit its greatness. 

The same things they showed happening on The Wire in Season's 1, 3, 4 goes on in all Major Cities, Chicago, Atl, NYC, Mia, LA even your Detroit, Gary In, Buffalo Ny etc in terms of industries failing jobs drying up and people turning to other means (Season 2).  The deterioration of the mdeia the increased sensationalism (Season 5) is going on everywhere. The same can't be said for Breaking Bad the closest thing would be The Soprano's in terms of realism.

As far as character development

The Wire has it in Drones from Kima to Michael, Naymond to D'angelo, Bubs to Prez...You'd be hard pressed to find more of it during a show.  So Yea... The Wire is just on a different level.

 

[persiafly]

Originally Posted by Big J 33

 The Wire's social commentary, ability to change it's focus each season, and incredibly developed characters puts it as 1A for me. The Sopranos' being the first show that was truly successful commercially and critically on cable as it was cannot go overlooked. Without The Sopranos, modern TV is radically different. And beyond that, the issues they hit on as well, whether it be family, crime, and Tony's transformation is superb, add great acting, writing, music, it's just the total package, and I would say it's 1B.

The Wire was the most realistic and it's portrayal of numerous issues facing Baltimore and our country as a whole separates it from the rest. And the Sopranos ability to combine great acting, developed characters, music, directing, and essentially give you the cinematic experience on your TV for 6 seasons was an innovation for TV and influential to everything that's come after it.

Disclaimer: I have never seen Mad Men or Breaking Bad, so I can't comment on those.
But as to Sopranos v. The Wire, it's not even close to me. The Wire is superior. The reasons that Klosterman and Big J stated for the Soprano's even being in the same conversation are not compelling in my opinion. It's true that the Sopranos ushered in a new era of television and took us to places we'd never really been in a television series, but that's hardly a reason to place it on par with The Wire, which is a superior show in almost every sense. It'd be like saying Julius Erving is in the same category of dunker as Vince Carter because he ushered in the era of the creative dunker. Dr. J deserves props for that, but no one can say with a serious face that his abilities as a dunker rivaled those of Vince Carter's.

It's the same with the Sopranos and The Wire. The Sopranos had some compelling characters, but it was hugely driven by a single hero. The Wire didn't have a single dominant character, and this allowed the show to have a much broader effect on the viewer by allowing the viewer to see the same situation through the eyes of many different actors, and more importantly, to sympathize and root for each actor. This sounds simple enough, but it's truly a stroke of genius on the part of the creators of The Wire to be able to tell their story through so many characters, while maintaining enough richness and complexity in each one to avoid leaving the viewer with the feeling that he or she is not directly connected to the show through the single hero that we're all used to having in a show.

This is just one aspect of The Wire's superiority to the Sopranos, but most of the other reasons flow from it. When you spread the "hero" factor in your show among various different characters, you can also address a greater number of themes and social issues, with great impact derived from each storyline. Flowing from that, The Wire was more consistently rich and compelling over the course of the series because it had more to tackle, whereas the Sopranos stagnated at some points with the same characters and the same issues between them.

 

[persiafly]

Originally Posted by Big J 33

 The Wire's social commentary, ability to change it's focus each season, and incredibly developed characters puts it as 1A for me. The Sopranos' being the first show that was truly successful commercially and critically on cable as it was cannot go overlooked. Without The Sopranos, modern TV is radically different. And beyond that, the issues they hit on as well, whether it be family, crime, and Tony's transformation is superb, add great acting, writing, music, it's just the total package, and I would say it's 1B.

The Wire was the most realistic and it's portrayal of numerous issues facing Baltimore and our country as a whole separates it from the rest. And the Sopranos ability to combine great acting, developed characters, music, directing, and essentially give you the cinematic experience on your TV for 6 seasons was an innovation for TV and influential to everything that's come after it.

Disclaimer: I have never seen Mad Men or Breaking Bad, so I can't comment on those.
But as to Sopranos v. The Wire, it's not even close to me. The Wire is superior. The reasons that Klosterman and Big J stated for the Soprano's even being in the same conversation are not compelling in my opinion. It's true that the Sopranos ushered in a new era of television and took us to places we'd never really been in a television series, but that's hardly a reason to place it on par with The Wire, which is a superior show in almost every sense. It'd be like saying Julius Erving is in the same category of dunker as Vince Carter because he ushered in the era of the creative dunker. Dr. J deserves props for that, but no one can say with a serious face that his abilities as a dunker rivaled those of Vince Carter's.

It's the same with the Sopranos and The Wire. The Sopranos had some compelling characters, but it was hugely driven by a single hero. The Wire didn't have a single dominant character, and this allowed the show to have a much broader effect on the viewer by allowing the viewer to see the same situation through the eyes of many different actors, and more importantly, to sympathize and root for each actor. This sounds simple enough, but it's truly a stroke of genius on the part of the creators of The Wire to be able to tell their story through so many characters, while maintaining enough richness and complexity in each one to avoid leaving the viewer with the feeling that he or she is not directly connected to the show through the single hero that we're all used to having in a show.

This is just one aspect of The Wire's superiority to the Sopranos, but most of the other reasons flow from it. When you spread the "hero" factor in your show among various different characters, you can also address a greater number of themes and social issues, with great impact derived from each storyline. Flowing from that, The Wire was more consistently rich and compelling over the course of the series because it had more to tackle, whereas the Sopranos stagnated at some points with the same characters and the same issues between them.

 

[gregzzy23]

Originally Posted by AME416

[h3]

Breaking Bad beats The Sopranos

[/h3]

 

[gregzzy23]

Originally Posted by AME416

[h3]

Breaking Bad beats The Sopranos

[/h3]

 

[deleted]

I'll gladly take Breaking Bad over any of those other shows...it's just better to me.

It's like the Coen brothers on television.

 

[deleted]

I'll gladly take Breaking Bad over any of those other shows...it's just better to me.

It's like the Coen brothers on television.

 

[danger style]

I started a thread like this about a year ago comparing the top AMC dramas to the top HBO ones. It did not end well

At this point Mad Men has definitely surpassed The Sopranos IMO. Breaking Bad took the leap from good show to great in Season 3 and if this upcoming season delivers (which it should) I'll consider it one of the GOATs

 

[danger style]

I started a thread like this about a year ago comparing the top AMC dramas to the top HBO ones. It did not end well

At this point Mad Men has definitely surpassed The Sopranos IMO. Breaking Bad took the leap from good show to great in Season 3 and if this upcoming season delivers (which it should) I'll consider it one of the GOATs

 

[big j 33]

Not a chance Mad Men is better than the Sopranos... "definitely" is a stretch, it's in the same realm and conversation, but not better for me.

 

[big j 33]

Not a chance Mad Men is better than the Sopranos... "definitely" is a stretch, it's in the same realm and conversation, but not better for me.

 

[hajman23]

He makes some good points, namely about how the central character has made such a dramatic transformation that it no longer matters what he does, people will still root for him. I'm not sure we've ever seen a central character change that much. I would say that the kids in the Wire were changing pretty frequently, and I think Stringer changed a ton from the beginning.

For me, I think it goes:
The Wire
Breaking Bad
The Sopranos
Mad Men