2013-2014 NBA Thread - IND @ WAS and OKC @ LAC on ESPN

[osh kosh bosh]

tanking = building, whats the dif.

not everyone can fall back *** ward into Pau Gasol fat looser brother loosing 50 pounds and becoming an all star, or another fat guy scumbag who allegedly "use to get it in Indianan." suddenly cleaning his act up. thats is not a strategy, thats called luck.

 

[bhzmafia14]

Cleveland didn't mess up by being in the lottery too long, thats horse ****


they drafted poorly, they were given three high draft picks and they made three CATASTROPHICALLY bad decisions.

I'm saying they thought they could mimic OKC and look what happened? Their scouting department is not on the level of OKC's and it burned them. They were reaching to make those weird *** picks and now they are staring in the face of mediocrity. That's why I said a realistic view of a rebuilding team is to get at least 1 great player in the span of 2-3 years from drafting. The OKC model is get 3-4 superstar level players in a 3-4 year span and that's just not realistic.

Drafting can only do so much, but making smart trades/free agent signings is what pushes a team over the top.

Check this out...Grizz drafted Lowry in 2006, Conley in 2007, Love in 2008 (traded for OJ), Thabeet in 2009, Henry in 2010. These were the Grizz lottery picks over a 5 year period (with the exception of Lowry who was picked #24). If they relied solely on drafting, I think they would be a lot worse today.

But, what did they do? Traded Battier for Gay, received the rights to Marc from the Pau trade, traded for ZBo using Qrich, signed Tony Allen. They only developed ONE of their draft picks over a 5 year span. ONE. The reason why Memphis is in a more respectable position today is due to their trading and free agent signings.

 

[sea manup]

looking back at the past finals teams, not even just the ones that have won titles

duncan, wade

KD, wade

dirk, wade

kobe, pierce

kobe, dwight

kobe, pierce

lebron, duncan

wade, dirk

every one of these teams had a hall of famer that they drafted

 

[sea manup]

 

Cleveland didn't mess up by being in the lottery too long, thats horse ****

they drafted poorly, they were given three high draft picks and they made three CATASTROPHICALLY bad decisions.

I'm saying they thought they could mimic OKC and look what happened? Their scouting department is not on the level of OKC's and it burned them. They were reaching to make those weird *** picks and now they are staring in the face of mediocrity. That's why I said a realistic view of a rebuilding team is to get at least 1 great player in the span of 2-3 years from drafting. The OKC model is get 3-4 superstar level players in a 3-4 year span and that's just not realistic.

getting more top draft picks is never a bad thing, the cavs are just idiots

they cant draft and they dont make smart trades

 

[hongcouver604]

its not just taxes, everything here is more expensive 

pick up a book and look at the price on the back, theres an american price and a higher canadian price even though our currencies are about the same and this is before tax is calculated 

. I remember when a pair of Jordan's in Canada would cost 229.99 BEFORE TAX. The same pair can be found in the US for $135. Everything is inflated here.

Canadian health care sucks. You get what you pay for in the US... Canada > US aside from cost of living and medical benefits.

 

[100027]

 
yeah, its also really hard to build a team ONLY through the draft

but to build a championship team you need BOTH good drafting and smart trading/free agent signings

bottom line is to win a championship you need to get a great player from the draft, how you choose to build around that guy is up to the team

Yes.   

You do have to be very careful in free agency because the costs of good players are ALWAYS inflated.  It's very, very difficult not to overpay for whoever you're going to get in FA, especially if you're aiming for guys with star or # 2/3 potential.

 

[100027]

. I remember when a pair of Jordan's in Canada would cost 229.99 BEFORE TAX. The same pair can be found in the US for $135. Everything is inflated here.

Canadian health care sucks. You get what you pay for in the US... Canada > US aside from cost of living and medical benefits.

I don't know about that.  

Medical costs are really insane here, have been growing at a crazy rate the past decade.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

. I remember when a pair of Jordan's in Canada would cost 229.99 BEFORE TAX. The same pair can be found in the US for $135. Everything is inflated here.

Canadian health care sucks. You get what you pay for in the US... Canada > US aside from cost of living and medical benefits.

yeah sure tell that to pretty much every modern ranking of different health care systems we are top 20 in the world in terms of efficiency, effectiveness,and value. ask bloomberg ask WHO

Americans pay more money for ****tier healthcare.


maybe a millionair might be able to get better health care than a canadian, but fact is, for 99.9% of you. Canada>>>>>US healthcare.

 

[sea manup]

 

. I remember when a pair of Jordan's in Canada would cost 229.99 BEFORE TAX. The same pair can be found in the US for $135. Everything is inflated here.

Canadian health care sucks. You get what you pay for in the US... Canada > US aside from cost of living and medical benefits.

I don't know about that.  

Medical costs are really insane here, have been growing at a crazy rate the past decade.

i would say the average level of healthcare is better in canada than it is the US but the 1% healthcare, for the lack of a better word, is way better in the US

 

[bhzmafia14]

getting more top draft picks is never a bad thing, the cavs are just idiots

they cant draft and they dont make smart trades

Look at how many teams that have been in the lottery over the last 2 or 3 years. How many of those teams have truly benefited from being in the lottery and building through the draft? The only team I can think of right off the bat is Portland. and they were only in the lottery for 2 years where they lucked up and drafted Lillard.

 

[100027]

I agree with bhz in one sense.  This isn't football, where you can just build a team out of first round picks.  You can't just plug and play most young players, even if they are top talents.  Too many young stars on a team together aren't going to develop properly in most cases.  If you go 3 or 4 years drafting in the top 5, you are going to get diminishing returns even out of talented guys.

You're going to need to bring in veterans at many key positions.

 

[100027]

 
i would say the average level of healthcare is better in canada than it is the US but the 1% healthcare, for the lack of a better word, is way better in the US

Right.  Top of the line medical treatments, cutting edge stuff may be more accessible here.  Which is why the very wealthy might find themselves coming into the U.S. for certain procedures.

 

[sea manup]

 

getting more top draft picks is never a bad thing, the cavs are just idiots

they cant draft and they dont make smart trades

Look at how many teams that have been in the lottery over the last 2 or 3 years. How many of those teams have truly benefited from being in the lottery and building through the draft? The only team I can think of right off the bat is Portland. and they were only in the lottery for 2 years where they lucked up and drafted Lillard.

in recent memory, top 5 picks

KD

kyree

AD

Blake

Rose

Wall

Kyree

Love

Westbrook

Harden

more teams have gotten great players through the draft in recent years than they have via free agency/trade, and the teams that draft get these players for a fraction of the cost 

 

[shoeking2101]

looking back at the past finals teams, not even just the ones that have won titles

duncan, wade
KD, wade
dirk, wade
kobe, pierce
kobe, dwight
kobe, pierce
lebron, duncan
wade, dirk


every one of these teams had a hall of famer that they drafted

Yeah but look at the players you are mentioning. Generational, franchise changing talents. They do not come around that often. Most teams don't get this lucky. I think great drafting is a plus but not a necessity. The odds of winning in the NBA are so low that to me it's not even worth tanking. Like you just mentioned, past champions have drafted Hall of Famers. How fortunate are you going to be to get a hall of famer? If you're really lucky, most of the times you'll get a player that at best gets you to the 2nd round. Only 4 teams every year make it past the 2nd round anyway.

So, the notion of being a 1 to 2 round team and bouncing being mediocre may be true, but it's also the likelihood for most teams, regardless of the way you draft. (Unless you hit a home run like Lebron, or Tim Duncan) This is why I'm against tanking and would rather be average than horrible because the incentives for being horrible aren't great at all. Unless you get a generational talent, the best you're probably going to be is a 2nd round and done team.

 

[mister friendly]

looking back at the past finals teams, not even just the ones that have won titles

duncan, wade
KD, wade
dirk, wade
kobe, pierce
kobe, dwight
kobe, pierce
lebron, duncan
wade, dirk


every one of these teams had a hall of famer that they drafted

Yeah but look at the players you are mentioning. Generational, franchise changing talents. They do not come around that often. Most teams don't get this lucky. I think great drafting is a plus but not a necessity. The odds of winning in the NBA are so low that to me it's not even worth tanking. Like you just mentioned, past champions have drafted Hall of Famers. How fortunate are you going to be to get a hall of famer? If you're really lucky, most of the times you'll get a player that at best gets you to the 2nd round. Only 4 teams every year make it past the 2nd round anyway.

So, the notion of being a 1 to 2 round team and bouncing being mediocre may be true, but it's also the likelihood for most teams, regardless of the way you draft. (Unless you hit a home run like Lebron, or Tim Duncan) This is why I'm against tanking and would rather be average than horrible because the incentives for being horrible aren't great at all. Unless you get a generational talent, the best you're probably going to be is a 2nd round and done team.

Dirk,Wade,Pierce and Dwight aren't generational talents

 

[shoeking2101]

I agree with bhz in one sense.  This isn't football, where you can just build a team out of first round picks.  You can't just plug and play most young players, even if they are top talents.  Too many young stars on a team together aren't going to develop properly in most cases.  If you go 3 or 4 years drafting in the top 5, you are going to get diminishing returns even out of talented guys.

You're going to need to bring in veterans at many key positions.

This alludes to my point of why tanking is dumb. IMO you're only going to continue to live in the cellar by tanking and hoping that you get a franchise changer. If you're average, or "mediocre," then be mediocre and try to improve in all of the ways you can i.e. Trades, Free agency, & whatever you can through the draft. Tanking is not the move however. You're just going to continue to suck.

 

[100027]

This alludes to my point of why tanking is dumb. IMO you're only going to continue to live in the cellar by tanking and hoping that you get a franchise changer. If you're average, or "mediocre," then be mediocre and try to improve in all of the ways you can i.e. Trades, Free agency, & whatever you can through the draft. Tanking is not the move however. You're just going to continue to suck.

Yeah but what you're saying is a prescription for future mediocrity, like the Bucks of the last decade, or the Sonics for most of the 00's.  You MUST get that franchise player and for many teams that means you're going to have to land in the lottery.

 

[shoeking2101]

Dirk,Wade,Pierce and Dwight aren't generational talents

1) The hell they're not. D Wade is the best undersized 2 guard ever arguably. Pierce isn't, but the celtics didn't get great until trading for KG and signing Ray Allen. Dirk Nowitzski is for sure a generational talent, dunno what you're talking about there we've never seen anything like him. And Dwight isn't a generational talent but the magic lucked up with that Homerun pick. Historically speaking, when you luck up and get a great 5 through the draft, you normally become a championship contender.

2) The teams of the players that you listed didn't get good until they started getting trades and signing free agents. The sentiment is still that Tanking hardly ever works and that the notion of "Rather be horrible than in the middle" in my opinion almost never works out.

 

[100027]

Dirk not a generational talent?  

Only one of the 5 best players at his position of all time...  Yeah.

 

[shoeking2101]

Yeah but what you're saying is a prescription for future mediocrity, like the Bucks of the last decade, or the Sonics for most of the 00's.  You MUST get that franchise player and for many teams that means you're going to have to land in the lottery.

How likely are you to get that Hall of Famer though? Would you prefer to be horrible for an entire decade or be average and 2nd round bound for that decade?

 

[black migo]

D wade is a undersized sg?

 

[100027]

How likely are you to get that Hall of Famer though? Would you prefer to be horrible for an entire decade or be average and 2nd round bound for that decade?

It's easier to be mediocre for a decade than it is to be horrible for a decade, because the draft system is set up to try and make that difficult.

 

[shoeking2101]

D wade is a undersized sg?

He's barely 6'4. Coming out of Marquette he was a classic tweener. That was probably the biggest knock on him coming into the L. Undersized for position, questionable jumper. He was for sure considered undersized for his position by many.

 

[sea manup]

pacers, heat, clippers, OKC, spurs, warriors are all currently top NBA teams and without getting a great draft pick they would not be where they are today

unless you already have a superstar player developing, there is no reason to ever want to make the playoffs and be an average team

 

[uncharteddrake]

 blah blah blah blah...more blah....blah on top of that


I could careless....classless or not

follow him in that coffin while your at it too....when he goes

That man singlehandedly destroyed my favorite sport.....turn this into a circus.. (im so nostalgic....90's basketball is second to none)

You got everybody running around to make a MiamI heat 2.0....from Brooklyn to New York....to the lowly Detroit Pistons and Sacramento kings...smh


If this man is soooo great....Why couldn't he do it in Cleveland? Answer that....HE IS THE GREATEST EVER...so by that notion he should of accomplished it on his own and win in Cleveland

If he is sooo great...do it by yourself....You are the greatest man ever born on this planet to dribble a basketball right? is that not the words the youth utters....nowadays

DO IT BY YOURSELF...JUST YOU YES.....Do what iverson couldn't do...

But nah its always..."he needed help...he needs more help"

If that man can play any position on the court.....guard and shut down anyone....score from anywhere on the floor...than that man can single handedly win a chip by himself...


if you so great...and you do everything....the hell you need wade and bosh....miller, battier, chalmers and allens 3's...


When he wins its because of him and only him...when they lose...its because wade is old or bosh is ghost...


sure ya right

And another thing, it wasn't the heat who started the team up, it was the celtics, why don't you cry to them?
the only thing you can win by yourself in the nba are MVP's, and bron has plenty of those. To win a championship, you need a TEAM......no one man whether mj, kobe, duncan can win a championship on their own.

This post still baffles me hours later.