2008 NL Gold Glove Winners

[osh kosh bosh]

No Fred Lewis though...

McLouth though? Fraud?

 

[ooiron manoo]

I don't buy into Bill James' statistics, as you can see the way they rated McClouth, they or him, tend to over analyze everything.

That being said, Fred Lewis is not a Gold Glover and McClouth, Ethier, Franceour are not as bad as Bill James has them listed.

 

[DownByLaw]

1B: Adrian Gonzalez, SD

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news...t_id=3664890&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by ooIRON MANoo

I don't buy into Bill James' statistics, as you can see the way they rated McClouth, they or him, tend to over analyze everything.

That being said, Fred Lewis is not a Gold Glover and McClouth, Ethier, Franceour are not as bad as Bill James has them listed.

LOL that's like saying you don't believe in Einstein

, or evolution.
It's a simple system they watch every single game and they give a player a point for making a play...Then they calculate the league average at eachposition....aside from the Fenway park problem it's a pretty good system....

 

[holdupstop23]

Originally Posted by onewearz

Originally Posted by atljunkie

%*%+%+## @ 2 METS getting it. like ive said before... its a popularity contest although some of these players deserved it.

exactly, it's a popularity contest. how does david wright win over zimmerman ? my opinion has nothing to do with my utter hatred for the mets. i think beltran deserved it but not wright. dude has become the nl poster child for some reason

and before any met fans come crashing through windows to defend wright, i like him as a player. i just don't think he deserved a gold glove because he's the face of a popular franchise ...........

Why are you so angry?

Wright had 6 more errors...in almost 60 more games. I dont see anyone else that deserved it other than maybe Glaus. But then that's when his popularitywins.

 

[onewearz]

was that directed at me or the dude i quoted cause i'm def not angry. i just think baseball hands these awards out to guys who most of the time are notdeserving. it just seems like a popularity contest. it don't even seem like they put effort into choosing which pitcher gets it , " ahh just give itto maddox "

i remember when palmeiro beat out tino martinez for the gold glove and he was a dh for the year. he played like 60 games at first that year

 

[joe billionaire]

maddux will retire and still win a gold golve

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by onewearz

was that directed at me or the dude i quoted cause i'm def not angry. i just think baseball hands these awards out to guys who most of the time are not deserving. it just seems like a popularity contest. it don't even seem like they put effort into choosing which pitcher gets it , " ahh just give it to maddox "

i remember when palmeiro beat out tino martinez for the gold glove and he was a dh for the year. he played like 60 games at first that year

Though Baseball is ripe with reputation gold glove awards but make no mistake he deserves EVERY SINGLE ONE. Maddux and Kenny Rodgers have been thebest fielding pitchers for a minute.

 

[mfr3shm]

David Wright again

Greg Maddux

 

[justhotkicks]

Originally Posted by atljunkie

@!%%!*%$ @ 2 METS getting it. like ive said before... its a popularity contest although some of these players deserved it.

Beltran is the best defensive OFer in the game. He's cut off so many doubles and reads the ball perfectly.

As for Wright, he has incredible range. He's knocked down so many sure-fire doubles and turned them into outs or infield singles.

But it really should be THREE Mets GGers; how Johan didn't win it at the pitcher's position is laughable. Dude is a cat out there.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by justhotkicks

Originally Posted by atljunkie

@!%%!*%$ @ 2 METS getting it. like ive said before... its a popularity contest although some of these players deserved it.

Beltran is the best defensive OFer in the game. He's cut off so many doubles and reads the ball perfectly.

As for Wright, he has incredible range. He's knocked down so many sure-fire doubles and turned them into outs or infield singles.

But it really should be THREE Mets GGers; how Johan didn't win it at the pitcher's position is laughable. Dude is a cat out there.

You're not serious.

 

[justhotkicks]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by justhotkicks

Originally Posted by atljunkie

@!%%!*%$ @ 2 METS getting it. like ive said before... its a popularity contest although some of these players deserved it.

Beltran is the best defensive OFer in the game. He's cut off so many doubles and reads the ball perfectly.

As for Wright, he has incredible range. He's knocked down so many sure-fire doubles and turned them into outs or infield singles.

But it really should be THREE Mets GGers; how Johan didn't win it at the pitcher's position is laughable. Dude is a cat out there.

You're not serious.

Explain.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by justhotkicks

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by justhotkicks

Originally Posted by atljunkie

@!%%!*%$ @ 2 METS getting it. like ive said before... its a popularity contest although some of these players deserved it.

Beltran is the best defensive OFer in the game. He's cut off so many doubles and reads the ball perfectly.

As for Wright, he has incredible range. He's knocked down so many sure-fire doubles and turned them into outs or infield singles.

But it really should be THREE Mets GGers; how Johan didn't win it at the pitcher's position is laughable. Dude is a cat out there.

You're not serious.

Explain.

Because Pedro Feliz , Troy Glaus, and Chipper Jones are beating him in ZR & RF..he's not even top 5 in ZR

If that's not enough...

 

[ooiron manoo]

LOL that's like saying you don't believe in Einstein

, or evolution.
It's a simple system they watch every single game and they give a player a point for making a play...Then they calculate the league average at each position....aside from the Fenway park problem it's a pretty good system....

Bill James =/= Einstein

. You can't be serious. It is one way of statistically analyzing defense inbaseball. However, it does have it's flaws.

According to the table, Blake DeWitt is a better defensive 3rd baseman than Ryan Zimmerman,

. I'm a Dodger fan, watched almost every Dodger game this season, and whileDeWitt is a serviceable 3rd baseman, the Dodgers wouldn't be looking for one, or moving him to 2nd base in 2009, if he was better defensively than RyanZimmerman.

Like I said, Bill James' formula's are flawed. Although I don't think David Wright deserves the Gold Glove this season, Ryan Zimmerman should havegot the GG, he is a very good 3rd baseman that makes a lot of highlight reel catches. There are certain defensive qualities that Bill James does not assign apoint value to. They don't account for someone knocking down the ball, which affects the game by turning a sure double into a single. They don'taccount for running bad routes in the outfield or misplaying a ball in the infield.

My picks for GG:

NL:
1B Pujols
2B Utley
SS Rollins
3B Zimmerman
OF Beltran
OF Victorino

OF McClouth
C Molina
P Maddux

AL:
1B Teixeira
2B Pedroia
SS ?
3B Beltre
OF Ichiro
OF Markakis
OF Crawford
C ?
P ?

All you have to look at is how hight they have Ryan Braun ranked in order to get a good chuckle in,

. Einstein my +*@.

 

[justhotkicks]

Thanks for providing a .gif.

Those lists are based on stats and stats only. How misleading are stats? Wright had 16 errors, but in how many attempts do these errors occur? This can be saidfor every 3B, but Wright shouldn't be singled out for that. Errors are sometimes recorded when they're not supposed to be, and there have been a numberof instances in which Wright got an error for making an errant throw after making a diving stop that 90% of the MLB third-basemen won't make or evenattempt. I distinctively remember Wright being charged an error for making a throw off his back foot to Delgado's left. The camera went to the outfieldthinking the ball got past his glove.

I've watched enough Nationals games over the years and while Zimm is spectacular covering the corner and fields dribblers down the line with ease, he'sslow to his left. So you're telling me Pedro Feliz is a better 3B because of this rating? He can't field slow-rollers at all. Look at Utley's"rating". Almost triple that of B-Phillips, so why didn't he win it?

This list is null and void.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Those lists are based on stats and stats only. How misleading are stats? Wright had 16 errors, but in how many attempts do these errors occur? This can be said for every 3B, but Wright shouldn't be singled out for that. Errors are sometimes recorded when they're not supposed to be, and there have been a number of instances in which Wright got an error for making an errant throw after making a diving stop that 90% of the MLB third-basemen won't make or even attempt. I distinctively remember Wright being charged an error for making a throw off his back foot to Delgado's left. The camera went to the outfield thinking the ball got past his glove.
Nice try but the system is not base on stats they don't factor in errors or put outs, they watch every game and give points for plays. IfWright makes a diving stop and flubs the throw he stills gets a +1 so your points are null and void

I've watched enough Nationals games over the years and while Zimm is spectacular covering the corner and fields dribblers down the line with ease, he's slow to his left. So you're telling me Pedro Feliz is a better 3B because of this rating? He can't field slow-rollers at all.

Cold hard numbers or your subjective met fan analysis. I'll take the numbers.

For years cats like you have been swaering up and down that Jeter is a greatdefensive shortstop...meanwhile the numbers reveal the truth. He sucks.

Look at Utley's "rating". Almost triple that of B-Phillips, so why didn't he win it?
Because baseball writers don't know what the hell they are talking about.

 

[wraith aka invincible]

Originally Posted by RetroBaller

Zimmerman is the best Defensive player in the Major Leagues
Where is Lastings?
Dont get me started on Dukes. Laser arm, blazing speed..how can they not get gold gloves?

what was typed there, i see it

markakis

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Bill James =/= Einstein

. You can't be serious. It is one way of statistically analyzing defense in baseball. However, it does have it's flaws.
The father of a movement that promoted logic valued over ridiculous hokum. Basically the reason we have OBP, OPS, and ZR in baseball. Dude is apioneer.

According to the table, Blake DeWitt is a better defensive 3rd baseman than Ryan Zimmerman,

. I'm a Dodger fan, watched almost every Dodger game this season, and while DeWitt is a serviceable 3rd baseman, the Dodgers wouldn't be looking for one, or moving him to 2nd base in 2009, if he was better defensively than Ryan Zimmerman.
This doesn't mean anything, you're subjective analysis has far more "flaws" than his statistical analysis.

Like I said, Bill James' formula's are flawed.
You keep saying flaws without actually getting into specifics?

Tell me what are the flaws with using LOGIC rather than the ramblings of some Nt'er and his humble analysis.

There are certain defensive qualities that Bill James does not assign a point value to. They don't account for someone knocking down the ball, which affects the game by turning a sure double into a single.


YES HE DOES.

You don't know what you're talking about stoppretending like you do.

They don't account for running bad routes in the outfield or misplaying a balls in the infield.
If they miss play the ball then they don't make a play so they don't get a point? Cmon man.

NO STAT is flaw proof but it's far better then subjective analysis which can be colored by so many things. Use logic rather than vague adjectives to decidea players value this is a movement that Bill James basically started and guys like Billy Beane and Theo Epstien has been using to fleece idiot GM's whohave your attitude.

 

[ooiron manoo]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Bill James =/= Einstein

. You can't be serious. It is one way of statistically analyzing defense in baseball. However, it does have it's flaws.

The father of a movement that promoted logic valued over ridiculous hokum. Basically the reason we have OBP, OPS, and ZR in baseball. Dude is a pioneer.

According to the table, Blake DeWitt is a better defensive 3rd baseman than Ryan Zimmerman,

. I'm a Dodger fan, watched almost every Dodger game this season, and while DeWitt is a serviceable 3rd baseman, the Dodgers wouldn't be looking for one, or moving him to 2nd base in 2009, if he was better defensively than Ryan Zimmerman.
This doesn't mean anything, you're subjective analysis has far more "flaws" than his statistical analysis.

Like I said, Bill James' formula's are flawed.
You keep saying flaws without actually getting into specifics?

Tell me what are the flaws with using LOGIC rather than the ramblings of some Nt'er and his humble analysis.

There are certain defensive qualities that Bill James does not assign a point value to. They don't account for someone knocking down the ball, which affects the game by turning a sure double into a single.


YES HE DOES.

You don't know what you're talking about stop pretending like you do.

They don't account for running bad routes in the outfield or misplaying a balls in the infield.
If they miss play the ball then they don't make a play so they don't get a point? Cmon man.

NO STAT is flaw proof but it's far better then subjective analysis which can be colored by so many things. Use logic rather than vague adjectives to decide a players value this is a movement that Bill James basically started and guys like Billy Beane and Theo Epstien has been using to fleece idiot GM's who have your attitude.


While Billy Beane and Theo Epstein are disciples of James, his defensive formula's are flawed and hard to judge. Based on your tables alone. Don'tknow what I am talking about,

. You can be a follower, doesn'thave to make you blind though,

. I praise Bill James, his offensivestatistical analysis is amazing, and it is used by more GM's, not just Theo and Beane. I could get into that even further, but I won't, this is adiscussion of defensive statistical analysis.

Defense is hard to "statistically analyze", since the official statistics for it: Fielding Percentage, Errors, IP, are raw and leave a lot of roomfor interpretation. They try to come up with "Zone Rating", but clearly it is harder than that.

One reason, I think Bill James statistical analysis is flawed is they assign no point value to a defender that runs a bad route or misplays a ball. It issomething that is critical to the outcome of the game, yet, they don't assign a point to it. A misplayed ball, or a wrong route, could lead to an extrarunner touching home plate, an extra base, etc.

Statistical analysis isn't fool proof, you are correct on that one. Just like scouting isn't fool proof. One reason why Beane and Theo still haveScouting Departments. There are some things in sports that are not subjective, and can't be made into a statistic. Statistics will miss some things, andScouts will miss some things. Teams have both, kind of a system of checks and balances.

YES HE DOES.

You don't know what you're talking about stop pretending like you do.

, $!!$ is so funny it doesn't even insult me. You needto stop being condescending. Tossing out Bill James out there and trying to call it a day,

.

Defense in baseball is harder to "statistically analyze" than offense, hence why Bill James offensive formula's and statistics are highlyregarded in baseball circles. His defensive formula's still need work though.

When it comes to judging defense, GM's go to scouts that see the games, you can take that one to the bank.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The numbers by themselves don't mean anything it's a comparative statistic. Those plays don't represent run or anything it's merely away toexamine one players contributions over another. Like I said SCOUTS have been saying for years that Jeter is a great defensive shortstop with no real rhyme orreason besides a jump throw or flip against the A's

My explanation of the system was pedestrain at best here's a better description.

The computer totals all softly hit groundballs on Vector 17, for example, and determines that these types of batted balls are converted into outs by the shortstop only 26% of the time. Therefore, if, on this occasion, the shortstop converts a slowly hit ball on Vector 17 into an out, that's a heck of a play, and it scores at +.74. The credit for the play made, 1.00, minus the expectation that it should be made, which is 0.26. If the play isn't made-by anybody-it's -.26 for the shortstop.

Derrek Lee has won a Gold Glove in two of the last three years. How is it that he's fielded 13 fewer balls than could be expected of an average major league first baseman in that time? That's what the Plus/Minus System number of -13 for Derrek Lee means. (Technically, the meaning is slightly different, but I'll explain that later). The American League Gold Glover this year was Mark Teixeira, whose +17 was the best in baseball. Why is it that the National League Gold Glover comes out at -13 over three years? OK, so his 2005 number is +2. That doesn't seem very good for the Gold Glove winner.

@**@ is way more complicated and in depth than you could imagine...Defensive stats aren't as advanced as offensive stats but cmon man, eyes are still waymore deciving than stats.

 

[ooiron manoo]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

The numbers by themselves don't mean anything it's a comparative statistic. Those plays don't represent run or anything it's merely away to examine one players contributions over another. Like I said SCOUTS have been saying for years that Jeter is a great defensive shortstop with no real rhyme or reason besides a jump throw or flip against the A's

My explanation of the system was pedestrain at best here's a better description.

The computer totals all softly hit groundballs on Vector 17, for example, and determines that these types of batted balls are converted into outs by the shortstop only 26% of the time. Therefore, if, on this occasion, the shortstop converts a slowly hit ball on Vector 17 into an out, that's a heck of a play, and it scores at +.74. The credit for the play made, 1.00, minus the expectation that it should be made, which is 0.26. If the play isn't made-by anybody-it's -.26 for the shortstop.

Derrek Lee has won a Gold Glove in two of the last three years. How is it that he's fielded 13 fewer balls than could be expected of an average major league first baseman in that time? That's what the Plus/Minus System number of -13 for Derrek Lee means. (Technically, the meaning is slightly different, but I'll explain that later). The American League Gold Glover this year was Mark Teixeira, whose +17 was the best in baseball. Why is it that the National League Gold Glover comes out at -13 over three years? OK, so his 2005 number is +2. That doesn't seem very good for the Gold Glove winner.

@**@ is way more complicated and in depth than you could imagine...Defensive stats aren't as advanced as offensive stats but cmon man, eyes are still way more deciving than stats.




It is funny you say that about Jeter. I have a friend who is a big Jeter/Yankee fan, and I have been telling him for years that he is overrateddefensively. Just by watching Yankee games. I've always thought that Derek Jeter is the most overrated player in MLB. He calls me a hater, but when thatarticle came out on him a couple of days ago, I emailed it to him with a quickness,

. That is not saying he isn't good, but some people look at him as being *gulp* "god like". My eyes didn't miss that,

.

Moving on, like I said, Bill James stats on offense are pure gold. However, on defense they are not as refined, very raw. I could see them being used as abase for judging a baseball players defensive skills, but I wouldn't use them for my argument. There are some players on the bottom end of his stats, thatmake you go

(Ethier, McClouth), and there are some at the top that makeyou go

(Braun). Bottom line, they still need work.

 

[mez 0ne]

Osh Kosh with his usual I'm right you're wrong argument cause here are some "numbers".

But anyways (from a Mets fan perspective)......

Once you win a gold glove, it becomes easier to repeat. David Wright plays gold glove defense, his errors usually come from errant throws to 1st base but thoseusually come in bunches (he had several of those games early in the season but was solid as a rock most of the time), plus he makes a lot of clutch defensiveplays and keeps the ball in the infield. Like justhotkicks said, only 6 more errors in 60+ games, who else you want to hand it to Glaus?

As for Beltran, he is one of the best in CF defensively but I cannot stand when he plays deep ALL THE TIME, so many singles drop right in front of him.

I'm surprised Maddux won a gold glove over Santana though, but Maddux has earned that reputation while Santana will eventually earn that same respect (ifhe hasn't already).

Don't put too much emphasis on these awards, seriously.

 

[justhotkicks]

Originally Posted by ooIRON MANoo

Tossing out Bill James out there and trying to call it a day,

.

Defense in baseball is harder to "statistically analyze" than offense, hence why Bill James offensive formula's and statistics are highly regarded in baseball circles. His defensive formula's still need work though.

Exactly. There are so many factors that the ZR system can't do anything about. Shifts, fielders own tendencies, holes in the system, playersgetting groundballs OUT of their zones, etc.. The system doesn't account for shifts, bunt singles, singles that go past infielders who play far in, and soon. Maybe if every infielder played their position at the same spot over and over again regardless of who is at bat (which plays a huge role), the ZR would beuseful. If a 3B was playing a shift on a lefty, and the batter decides to lay down a weak bunt to the left side, is that the 3B fault? Of course not. Butaccording to the system, it is.

The bottom line is, we both have our bias, but what makes us different is that I watch the games. Don't spit out ZR and expect it to be the be-all end-all.

eyes are still way more deciving than stats.

Is 20 ppg from Zach Randolph the same as the same from Kevin Garnett?

 

[mrprince757]

Yadier

But Adrian Gonzalez over Al??

 

[eye eat kicks]

Wright deserved it, if you guys watched you would know wussup. You guys are honestly hating hes sick

and Beltran doesnt make the flashiest plays, but i think he is the most sure-gloved, makes everything look smooth and easy well deserved for both

cant wait for Citi Field!!!