Why are people desparate to give the bank their money? vol. expired debt

3,949
1,197
Joined
Nov 16, 2001
Warning: Long article.  I have bolded the pertinent points.
This article points out the great job banks have done at suckering people into thinking they need debt to finance their lifestyle and feel a sense of worth based on the color of their card.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bringing-expired-debt-back-to-life.html

Bringing Expired Debt Back to Life
By Jessica Silver-Greenberg | The Wall Street Journal – 7 hours ago


  • Thomas Carpenito got a credit card for agreeing to pay $400 of an old debt that New York state law had expunged. (Photo: Tommy's Deli & Cafe)

  • (WSJ)

No one was more surprised than Thomas Carpenito with the credit-card invitation that landed in his mailbox earlier this year.

The 27-year-old deli owner from White Plains, N.Y., had about $10,000 in old debts and a credit rating 200 points below "good." He recalled thinking the post office had delivered the letter to the wrong house.

Far from a mistake, the offer was part of a controversial and growing partnership between debt collectors and banks that profits both. To get the new credit card, Mr. Carpenito agreed to repay $400 on a seven-year-old debt that had expired under New York's statute of limitations.

"It was totally worth it," he said. Having no credit cards made Mr. Carpenito feel "like dirt," he said, especially when out on dates. His new credit card, stamped with the MasterCard Inc. logo, was offered by Jefferson Capital Systems LLC, the debt-collection arm of CompuCredit Holdings Corp., in Atlanta.

CompuCredit, a leader in the business, collected about $15 million in newly resurrected debts and fees by issuing credit cards to people with banged-up credit in the first nine months of this year, according to a securities filing. It also has drawn scrutiny by federal authorities for allegedly deceptive practices.

Many U.S. banks, hungry for new revenue streams, are eager partners. They receive fees and higher-than-average interest rates by granting debt collectors access to their license with MasterCard. The debt companies typically agree to cover losses to banks if borrowers stop paying.

Some lenders say borrowers have a moral obligation to pay their debts even if they are no longer legally responsible. Others are leery about subprime borrowers. But the debt-driven credit cards show some banks tiptoeing back into subprime lending after suffering big losses during the financial crisis.

Collectors aren't afraid of the risks in issuing new credit cards because they instantly turn a profit on virtually worthless debts—purchased for pennies on the dollar—when people agree to start making payments on them. The credit-card agreements essentially create assets out of thin air.

The cards, born a decade ago, are gaining new momentum as debt-collection firms look for new ways to collect, said William Weinstein, chief executive of Weinstein & Riley, a Seattle debt collector.

No one knows how many of these credit cards, usually stamped with the MasterCard logo, are in people's wallets. MasterCard declined to comment.

Genesis Financial Solutions, of Beaverton, Ore., said it was opening about 100,000 new accounts a year in its "Balance Transfer Program." Unlike typical balance-transfer offers, where consumers are lured with low interest rates to move credit balances, Genesis borrowers move expired debts onto the new card.

Irving Levin, the chief executive of Genesis, said the company's credit cards were an opportunity for consumers in a "very much underserved segment."

"I got a bunch of cards when I was younger, and the companies were basically giving them away," said Mr. Carpenito of his past debt troubles. "I couldn't really handle the bills, and I fell way behind."

Federal authorities have declared some of the offers deceptive because they failed to clearly explain to people they needn't pay back even a penny of the past debts because the obligations had expired under statutes of limitations set by individual states.

Mr. Carpenito's credit card from CompuCredit carried the name of Monterey County Bank, a unit of Northern California Bancorp. In 2010, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. accused Monterey of helping Tighorn Financial Services LLC disguise efforts to resurrect expired debts through new credit-card offers. Tighorn, a debt collector based in Sioux Falls, S.D., didn't return calls for comment.

Bank officials last year agreed to a $3 million settlement without admitting or denying wrongdoing. "Our bank no longer participates in any balance transfer card programs," Charles T. Chrietzberg Jr., Monterey County Bank's chairman, president and chief executive, said in an email in response to questions.

Mr. Carpenito's credit card is now underwritten by another lender. In November, CompuCredit's debt-collection arm got a credit line from another bank, PrivateBancorp Inc. in LaSalle, Ill., according to a securities filing, "to facilitate the growth of this segment's operations."

CompuCredit didn't respond to requests for comment.

Last month, its chairman and chief executive, David Hanna, told investors that the "current economic environment could lead to increased opportunities…as consumers with less access to credit create additional demand."

In 2008, CompuCredit agreed to return more than $114 million to customers after the Federal Trade Commission accused the company of deceptive practices that included failure to disclose high credit-card fees and failure to tell customers that accepting a Majestic credit card—emblazoned with a Visa Inc. logo—essentially enrolled them in a debt-repayment program. The company didn't admit to any wrongdoing in the settlement.

Visa, which declined to comment, is no longer in the debt-collection credit-card business, according to lawyers for debtors who have gotten card offers.

People who stop paying bills earn lousy credit ratings but eventually are freed of old debt under statutes of limitations that vary by state and range from three years to 10 years from the last loan payment.

But if a debtor agrees to make even a single payment on an expired debt, the clock starts anew on some part of the old obligation, a process called "re-aging."

So if borrowers again fall behind on their payments, debt collectors can turn to their usual tools: letters, phone calls and lawsuits. By restarting a debt's statute of limitations, the collectors have years to retrieve payments.

Regulators scrutinize offers to see whether they clearly state that borrowers are agreeing to repay part—or in some cases all—of an expired debt if they agree to a new credit card.

The pitches usually come in the form of a letter.

"Make your fresh start today," said one Emblem credit card offer viewed by The Wall Street Journal. A sentence near the top of the offer said, "This communication is from a debt collector."

Kindra Weaver, an office administrator who lives in Artesia, N.M., said she had no idea the $300 she paid in March for a Milestone credit card from Genesis Financial Solutions settled a debt long past the statute of limitations.

But she said she would happily do it again. "No one else wanted to even work with me," said Ms. Weaver, 26 years old. "I lost my job at one point and couldn't make ends meet. But I feel so much better about my life now that I was able to pay and get back on track."

Ms. Weaver has a $300 credit limit that can go up if she stays current with her monthly payments. Her credit card carries an annual interest rate of 19%, compared with an average rate of 13.7%.

Milestone credit cards are issued by Mid America Bank & Trust Co., a 91-year-old bank in Dixon, Mo. A regulatory filing shows the bank collected $1.1 million in "credit card program fee income" in the first nine months of 2011. The bank had profits of $1.2 million over the same period. Mid America declined to comment for this article.

Card Acquisition LLC says on its website that the Sioux Falls company's Affirm credit card can help debt collectors wring profits out of seemingly lost causes. The cards give "the debtor a positive way to settle their debt," the website said. Company officials didn't respond to calls for comment.

Participating banks say borrowers with poor credit—stemming from lost jobs or other financial catastrophes, for example—deserve another chance.

How to restart lending to them is "a question at the very center of the recovery," John D. Hawke Jr., the nation's top regulator of national banks from 1998 to 2008, said in an interview.

Last year, West Virginia Attorney General Darrell McGraw barred Jefferson Capital Systems, the debt-collection unit of CompuCredit, from offering state residents an Emblem credit card through the company's "Fresh Start Solution Program."

Mr. McGraw said the program was "abusive" because people didn't realize they were agreeing to pay debt that had expired. Other issuers still can do business in West Virginia. Some companies are concerned regulatory scrutiny could slow growth.

Angela Hoover, a 47-year-old laboratory assistant from Strasburg, Pa., said she was ready to sign up for an Emblem credit card in November. After reading the offer letter three times, she realized she would have to pay $434 in old debts before she could get the card.

The letter's "legal hogwash" was confusing, she said. "I am just grateful I didn't accept it."
 
Everybody wants to hustle. The banks/collectors are just really good at it.

"The credit-card agreements essentially create assets out of thin air." With statements like this they're really winning.
 
Because people, like the guy in the article, are grossly un-informed.  
Information (more importantly, the lack of it) is very, very expensive.
 
"27-year old deli owner"... really? and he's got credit issues? 


I think that if these people are given the option to sign up for these, and they do, we need to let them figure their own way out of it. Do you accept every offer that's mailed to you without doing your research first? I don't. I don't particularly care for a Statute of Limitations on debt. Sounds like these people owe somebody money, and have now made an arrangement to pay that money back. This does not bother me.
 
Is there anyone here who avoids credit all together? I've always heard stories about these people but I want some more input on what its like
 
Where do I go to get that free yearly credit report thing? I haven't checked mine in a long time. I'm guessing I need the report that reports all the bureaus?
 
Originally Posted by Antidope

Is there anyone here who avoids credit all together? I've always heard stories about these people but I want some more input on what its like
I'm working on it.  I've canceled 3-4 cards in the last 2 years, have gone to cash/debit only and I'm working to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible.

It's really not as hard as people make it seem.  You're actually more aware of your finances and pay attention to the total cost of your purchases at the register when you pay with cash.  It'll take your budgeting to a whole nother level.
 
Who actually takes the bullet when these peoples' loans are forgiven?
He consumes $10,000 in debt and then it is forgiven because of statues of limitations. So has to foot the bill for that?

In regards to the article: Honestly, there needs to be a course in high school alongside math, language arts, history, and p.e. that talks finance. Not an ec class but a mandatory one.
 
Originally Posted by crcballer55

Originally Posted by Antidope

Is there anyone here who avoids credit all together? I've always heard stories about these people but I want some more input on what its like
I'm working on it.  I've canceled 3-4 cards in the last 2 years, have gone to cash/debit only and I'm working to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible.

It's really not as hard as people make it seem.  You're actually more aware of your finances and pay attention to the total cost of your purchases at the register when you pay with cash.  It'll take your budgeting to a whole nother level.
Honestly bro, quit spewing your mis-information.
This country is built on credit. You NEED credit for everything "BIG" in this life. The average citizen will never save up 300k to purchase a home in cash, or have the means to buy a car in CASH. Canceling credit cards brings down your credit score and makes it harder to get a new card.

Until people start to live within their means, the banks will prey on them. It's a HUSTLE. It's no different from retailers getting you to buy $180 pair of jordans. Converse has $30 shoes. NEEDS AND WANTS.. learn to separate them and you will be ok.

Why are you trying to pay off your mortgage when you will never OWN it? What if you die tomorrow? You can't take the house with you. You'll always be paying a "mortgage" through property taxes, insurance and upkeep. 

I use my credit card exclusively and pay it off immediately. my credit card gives me points so I get paid to use it..so why wouldn't you.

If I "WANT" a TV and can't quite afford it, my credit is good enough to afford me 0% interest which is free money. I take what I saved up, apply it to the first statement and kick back and pay $50 or less for a year or 2. 

Credit is good when used correctly. 
 
Originally Posted by crcballer55

Originally Posted by Antidope

Is there anyone here who avoids credit all together? I've always heard stories about these people but I want some more input on what its like
I'm working on it.  I've canceled 3-4 cards in the last 2 years, have gone to cash/debit only and I'm working to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible.

It's really not as hard as people make it seem.  You're actually more aware of your finances and pay attention to the total cost of your purchases at the register when you pay with cash.  It'll take your budgeting to a whole nother level.
I think the issue for us youngins is we are told that we NEED good credit to purchase things like vehicles or a house/rent an apartment.
 
^^^cause you do. Even for an apartment you have to run a credit check. It shows that you can keep a history of making a monthly payment. Most people don't have 100s of thousands of dollars sitting under their mattress to buy a house in cash.

You NEED credit for cell phone, cable, some jobs.
 
Originally Posted by crcballer55

Originally Posted by Antidope

Is there anyone here who avoids credit all together? I've always heard stories about these people but I want some more input on what its like
I'm working on it.  I've canceled 3-4 cards in the last 2 years, have gone to cash/debit only and I'm working to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible.

It's really not as hard as people make it seem.  You're actually more aware of your finances and pay attention to the total cost of your purchases at the register when you pay with cash.  It'll take your budgeting to a whole nother level.
Why not buy things with a credit card and pay it off in full every month instead of using a debit card? Credit cards aren't the devil if you truly are responsible and self disciplined. A lot of perks come with using a credit card.
 
Originally Posted by crcballer55

Originally Posted by Antidope

Is there anyone here who avoids credit all together? I've always heard stories about these people but I want some more input on what its like
I'm working on it.  I've canceled 3-4 cards in the last 2 years, have gone to cash/debit only and I'm working to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible.

It's really not as hard as people make it seem.  You're actually more aware of your finances and pay attention to the total cost of your purchases at the register when you pay with cash.  It'll take your budgeting to a whole nother level.

You could also use a credit card to pay for all those things and then pay it off immediately, I assume you can do that seeing as how youve been properly balancing your balances for so long. With that option you can keep your money situation right while also building up your credit.
 
Originally Posted by crcballer55

Originally Posted by Antidope

Is there anyone here who avoids credit all together? I've always heard stories about these people but I want some more input on what its like
I'm working on it.  I've canceled 3-4 cards in the last 2 years, have gone to cash/debit only and I'm working to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible.

It's really not as hard as people make it seem.  You're actually more aware of your finances and pay attention to the total cost of your purchases at the register when you pay with cash.  It'll take your budgeting to a whole nother level.
So if I spend $20 cash on drinks I am actually going to remember that next month?  
How about I use my VISA to pay that $20 drink, earn points, and then download my credit card statement to Quicken/Quickbooks or any other financial software?   I use Quicken to run all types of financial reports which allows me to budget better and if I want to know how much I spent on drinks, guess what... I can run an expense report at any time.  Plus using a CC allows me greater flexibility with my cash because as everyone knows CASH = KING. 
 
Originally Posted by BrotherForReal

Originally Posted by crcballer55

Originally Posted by Antidope

Is there anyone here who avoids credit all together? I've always heard stories about these people but I want some more input on what its like
I'm working on it.  I've canceled 3-4 cards in the last 2 years, have gone to cash/debit only and I'm working to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible.

It's really not as hard as people make it seem.  You're actually more aware of your finances and pay attention to the total cost of your purchases at the register when you pay with cash.  It'll take your budgeting to a whole nother level.
Honestly bro, quit spewing your mis-information.
This country is built on credit. You NEED credit for everything "BIG" in this life. The average citizen will never save up 300k to purchase a home in cash, or have the means to buy a car in CASH. Canceling credit cards brings down your credit score and makes it harder to get a new card.

Until people start to live within their means, the banks will prey on them. It's a HUSTLE. It's no different from retailers getting you to buy $180 pair of jordans. Converse has $30 shoes. NEEDS AND WANTS.. learn to separate them and you will be ok.

Why are you trying to pay off your mortgage when you will never OWN it? What if you die tomorrow? You can't take the house with you. You'll always be paying a "mortgage" through property taxes, insurance and upkeep. 

I use my credit card exclusively and pay it off immediately. my credit card gives me points so I get paid to use it..so why wouldn't you.

If I "WANT" a TV and can't quite afford it, my credit is good enough to afford me 0% interest which is free money. I take what I saved up, apply it to the first statement and kick back and pay $50 or less for a year or 2. 

Credit is good when used correctly. 
How has the whole "build on credit" attitude been working out?  We have had a negative national consumer savings rate for the past 3 decades and the interest payments on federal bonds is approaching $600B/yr.  Until 50 years ago, it was a scarlet letter to buy on credit.  Only 5% of Americans even had a mortgage in the 1920's.  It wasn't until the boomers came that they demanded to have the things their parents had without working for them and so the financial sector catered to them by offering them financing options.

You CAN buy a car in cash.  The only difference is whether you want to pay for it now in cash, or overpay over time on credit.  You CAN buy a house without credit (although it is more difficult).  It's called manual underwriting.  In fact HERE is a company that accommodates those people.

You don't need a good credit score to get a card.  Companies have even given them out to dogs without a SSN!  Despite what they say, a credit card isn't a status symbol even if they do offer "concierge service".  Several studies have concluded that paying with credit causes you to buy more without even realizing it.
Carnegie Mellon Study
MSNBC Article
 
Why you continue to live your life based on articles is beyond me. you're comparing 2012 to 1920? really?

You can't compare 2011 to 2012. New year, new day.

I have a 780 credit score. Car loan at 2.9, house at 5% and a bunch of credit cards. I only use 1 and it has at the most a $100 balance at any given time.

Why would you ever want to pay for anything as big as a car or house in cash at once? You still have cost associated with owning either. Why wouldn't you want full coverage on a car whether its paid off or not, if you're going use that excuse.

You rush to pay of your house and guess what? that yearly property tax and monthly insurance premium is going to come FOREVER. You're never out of DEBT. Period.

You have to eat and live. Learn how to use credit to your advantage and you will be ok.
 
Originally Posted by BrotherForReal

Why you continue to live your life based on articles is beyond me. you're comparing 2012 to 1920? really?

You can't compare 2011 to 2012. New year, new day.

I have a 780 credit score. Car loan at 2.9, house at 5% and a bunch of credit cards. I only use 1 and it has at the most a $100 balance at any given time.

Why would you ever want to pay for anything as big as a car or house in cash at once? You still have cost associated with owning either. Why wouldn't you want full coverage on a car whether its paid off or not, if you're going use that excuse.

You rush to pay of your house and guess what? that yearly property tax and monthly insurance premium is going to come FOREVER. You're never out of DEBT. Period.

You have to eat and live. Learn how to use credit to your advantage and you will be ok.
I agree with your previous post; yes, credit used wisely is good fiscal sense, but some people just can't handle it.  However, I do disagree with not paying for a car or house all at once.   What's a big purchase is all relative; I have a friend who buy cars in cash on the regular because his paper is long.  I'm sure there are other extremely rich people who do that with things that costs a lot more than a car.  It's the same principle, whether you're buying a house or a candy bar; pay in full if you have the means for it.  Why pay interest when you don't have to?  And no, I'm not saying pay 30k in cash for a car when you have 30,875 dollars to your name.  That's a different discussion.
 
Originally Posted by CDUNK

Originally Posted by BrotherForReal

Why you continue to live your life based on articles is beyond me. you're comparing 2012 to 1920? really?

You can't compare 2011 to 2012. New year, new day.

I have a 780 credit score. Car loan at 2.9, house at 5% and a bunch of credit cards. I only use 1 and it has at the most a $100 balance at any given time.

Why would you ever want to pay for anything as big as a car or house in cash at once? You still have cost associated with owning either. Why wouldn't you want full coverage on a car whether its paid off or not, if you're going use that excuse.

You rush to pay of your house and guess what? that yearly property tax and monthly insurance premium is going to come FOREVER. You're never out of DEBT. Period.

You have to eat and live. Learn how to use credit to your advantage and you will be ok.
I agree with your previous post; yes, credit used wisely is good fiscal sense, but some people just can't handle it.  However, I do disagree with not paying for a car or house all at once.   What's a big purchase is all relative; I have a friend who buy cars in cash on the regular because his paper is long.  I'm sure there are other extremely rich people who do that with things that costs a lot more than a car.  It's the same principle, whether you're buying a house or a candy bar; pay in full if you have the means for it.  Why pay interest when you don't have to?  And no, I'm not saying pay 30k in cash for a car when you have 30,875 dollars to your name.  That's a different discussion.
Right. But, the average person doesn't have money stock piled like that. If you're getting a sub 10k car then by all means pay cash but with interest rates as low as they are why not?
I know a couple people with cash but they finance their cars and have mortgages because they need that liquidity in case of an opportunity to make more. 

I used my credit card to buy 15 Touchpads. I had the cash to cover it but I used the banks money. Sold them all within the first couple days and paid the balance. I didn't touch my cash and glad I didn't because the same week I had to get new tires.
mad.gif
 
I'm 28, only have a debit card, and a best buy card with 0 balance on the acct. Good to great credit score. Not a homeowner yet, but progressing that way. I have yet to encounter an issue of any kind bc I don't have a major CC. I only buy things I can afford, and am very selective at that with those purchases.
 
Originally Posted by BrotherForReal

Why you continue to live your life based on articles is beyond me. you're comparing 2012 to 1920? really?

You can't compare 2011 to 2012. New year, new day.

I have a 780 credit score. Car loan at 2.9, house at 5% and a bunch of credit cards. I only use 1 and it has at the most a $100 balance at any given time.

Why would you ever want to pay for anything as big as a car or house in cash at once? You still have cost associated with owning either. Why wouldn't you want full coverage on a car whether its paid off or not, if you're going use that excuse.

You rush to pay of your house and guess what? that yearly property tax and monthly insurance premium is going to come FOREVER. You're never out of DEBT. Period.

You have to eat and live. Learn how to use credit to your advantage and you will be ok.
There is a difference between debt and bills.  You will always have bills because those are associated with things you use.

I also have a high 700-low 800 score with no car loan and plenty saved in the bank.  I save what would be the payment and let the market make money for me.  Then I get to let someone else help pay for an even better car.  Why do I want to pay off my house so soon?  Because I don't want to pay the bank a dollar in order to get a 28 cent tax break.  With what will be saved on that house payment over 20 years will easily account to over $1MM and that is a reasonably sized house in California.
 
Originally Posted by crcballer55

Originally Posted by BrotherForReal

Why you continue to live your life based on articles is beyond me. you're comparing 2012 to 1920? really?

You can't compare 2011 to 2012. New year, new day.

I have a 780 credit score. Car loan at 2.9, house at 5% and a bunch of credit cards. I only use 1 and it has at the most a $100 balance at any given time.

Why would you ever want to pay for anything as big as a car or house in cash at once? You still have cost associated with owning either. Why wouldn't you want full coverage on a car whether its paid off or not, if you're going use that excuse.

You rush to pay of your house and guess what? that yearly property tax and monthly insurance premium is going to come FOREVER. You're never out of DEBT. Period.

You have to eat and live. Learn how to use credit to your advantage and you will be ok.
There is a difference between debt and bills.  You will always have bills because those are associated with things you use.

I also have a high 700-low 800 score with no car loan and plenty saved in the bank.  I save what would be the payment and let the market make money for me.  Then I get to let someone else help pay for an even better car.  Why do I want to pay off my house so soon?  Because I don't want to pay the bank a dollar in order to get a 28 cent tax break.  With what will be saved on that house payment over 20 years will easily account to over $1MM and that is a reasonably sized house in California.
But what if you aren't here 20 years from now though?  Just saying, you talk like you spend your life eating spam and drinking water just to become debt free.  It'd be sad to eat spam for 15 years and then die with millions in the bank and not have enjoyed your life. 

Also, a better idea is to max out the retirement match from your employer retirement plan than to put it into paying off the house. 
 
Originally Posted by Antidope

Originally Posted by crcballer55

Originally Posted by Antidope

Is there anyone here who avoids credit all together? I've always heard stories about these people but I want some more input on what its like
I'm working on it.  I've canceled 3-4 cards in the last 2 years, have gone to cash/debit only and I'm working to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible.

It's really not as hard as people make it seem.  You're actually more aware of your finances and pay attention to the total cost of your purchases at the register when you pay with cash.  It'll take your budgeting to a whole nother level.

You could also use a credit card to pay for all those things and then pay it off immediately, I assume you can do that seeing as how youve been properly balancing your balances for so long. With that option you can keep your money situation right while also building up your credit.

This is what I do.  If your bank offers a cash back card, it is in your best interest to do this.  I utilize my credit cards for just about everything.  In 3 years, I have received hundreds of dollars of rewards for just using my credit cards.  I love being able to go home and pay them off.  I spend only what I have, but use the credit cards to my advantage.
 
Back
Top Bottom