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[Doom.]

fax

if you dont like rocky IV you dont like america 

This thread needs even more America.

 

[Master Zik]

No you do not.

The leader is suppose to lead and give out commands. If one person shows to be unreliable or ghost you adapt.

That's exactly what happened. Steve is just mad he wasnt in the know.

 

[sea manup]

No you do not.

The leader is suppose to lead and give out commands. If one person shows to be unreliable or ghost you adapt.

That's exactly what happened. Steve is just mad he wasnt in the know.

yes you adapt, but you still get mad at the person who is unreliable 

I really hope you're not serious about this 

total lack of understanding about team dynamics

having people how are supposed to be under your command act out of line because they have a different agenda during the execution of a job is always unacceptable, no matter what situation in life. 

 

[Master Zik]

not even related to fictional movies but I'm seriously questioning if you guys have worked in teams before 

I think that's the bigger problem here. You're thinking of "teams"

This a paramilitary unit running black op missions.

W/e experience you're speaking from about being in a team does not apply. Steve has one foot in the spy world in that movie word to the twist. You gotta have a much more adult view of these things.

Then again that's probably why Steve is mad, he's not a spy and doesn't understand.

He is not privy to all info cuz he doesn't have the rank or trust to be fully informed. Probably part of why he ain't wanna sign the accords when I think about it.

 

[sea manup]

either way, it is a unit working together to accomplish a mission

dont bring up "spy world" nonsense to get out of not knowing what you're talking about.

The key to any mission is being able to trust the people you're working with to get your back, if you dont have that you have every reason to be mad. 

this applies to ANY team carrying out a specific task. 

The fact that it's a highly dangerous mission makes trust between members of the unit even more important, in fact a huge part of joining any military (including spy agencies) is extensive conditioning to create obedience and order, trust is everything.

 

[Master Zik]

I feel like you should've seen enough espionage flicks to know how this works.

If you're going to call it nonsense and accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about because I'm telling you espionage tactics requires dismissing the priority of communication I gotta assume you're being purposely daft and naive. You bring up trust even in spy agencies but seem to ignore the best spies are masters of subterfuge and leveraging trust. The side mission in this scenario trumps informing Steve Natasha may not be available at some point.

Natasha didn't act out of line. She was doing her job. I can tell you don't watch Agents of Shield I'm beginning to question how well versed you are when it comes to team work and being a spook. You should be watching The Americans to get a better understanding about why Steve aint about that life.

It is as simple as that.

 

[everysingletime]

It really is just as simple as telling Steve that Natasha has her own side mission and that he doesn't need to worry about it

 

[Master Zik]

It really is just as simple as telling Steve that Natasha has her own side mission and that he doesn't need to worry about it

If he doesn't need to know what it is, he doesn't really need to know at all.

Also I find it funny y'all think the whole she'll be doing something extra during the mission but don't worry about it is something Steve would just accept and not question.

If that's true Fury could've told him any kind of lie.

 

[KingParappa]

Steve is just like every old man. He likes how things used to be.

I personally can't blame him for not having faith in the system are the Hydra/Shield thing tho

 

[jays25]

Watching Winter Soldier right now and bruh, Steve's argument with Fury at the start of the film doesn't make a lick of sense.


"You just can't stop yourself from lying can you?"

Natasha had a mission "which you [Fury] didn't feel obliged to share."

"Those hostages could've died"


My man they didn't. End of discussion. You're literally getting angry over what could have happened even though it didn't happen. The **** are you talking about? Fury says it outright


"I sent the greatest soldier in history to make sure that didn't happen"


And it paid off, because, again, it didn't ******* happen. This is akin to a soldier getting angry at his commanding officer for all intents and purposes, because the commanding officer made a choice he didn't personally like. You're a ******* soldier! Your commander doesn't owe you a damn thing and will tell you what he feels you need to know to complete the mission as efficiently as possible. Again, Fury says it outright.


"It's called compartamentalization".


Fury didn't think you could do the job so he gave it to Natasha. Meanwhile, the job he thinks you can do he gives to you. There is no need to be upset and Steve's entire argument is pointless.

its really about communication though

since he's in command of the mission, he expects everyone under his command to follow his orders. In any team environment when someone is disobeying the leaders orders it is something worth talking about. 

you plan based on the assumption that everyone will be in place to do their jobs, so if someone else has a different agenda the entire plan can go south 

have you never been a part of an organised team before? 

He's in command of the mission, but not of the situation overall. Fury is. Therefore, there are limits as to what Steve can or cannot be made aware of, as determined by Fury. Again, Nick clearly spells this out for him at the start of Winter Soldier and honestly I saw nothing in First Avenger to ever imply that the top brass was making him aware of every little detail either of the entire WWll war effort He was simply given orders to take out various targets with his men and did so. Steve himself is not the actual leader. He's a sub-leader or a co-captain at best, since he, again, doesn't have complete authority. And as Fury said, he sent the greatest soldier in history for the mission to ensure that things didn't go south, which worked perfectly.

If you're say a team leader at a job or some other similar position, there are still numerous people above which whose orders supercede your own. They might therefore tell someone you're working with to do something at any given time and that person has to do it. This is a situation that happens every day. Whether or not they tell you is up to them. Sometimes they might, sometimes they might not and I assume that them doing so will depend on whether or not they feel you actually need to know. In this case, a black ops mission which is similar, but fairly different at the same time, Fury didn't think Steve needed to know, didn't tell him, and at the same time factored in Steve's own abilities into the situation to determine that he didn't need to tell him, which, again, worked out perfectly.

Natasha a spy though not a soldier.

Steve's issue with this is really from a lack of experience and knowledge of how real wars are fought and won.

You send your most capable spies on side missions. You don't tell everybody, even whoever is running the mission because the whole thing is on a need to know basis.

This ain't anything new though. Even in the comics Steve would stupidly argue with Fury over **** like this.

This ain't a basketball or hockey game talking about teams.

Pretty much Like the most I could see Fury needing to tell Steve at all is something along the lines of "Agent Romanov has another mission that she's going to be taking part in during this operation", which I really do not believe for a second Steve would just accept. He'd get angry and either grill Fury or Natasha over it and probably end up attempting to get involved to find out about it during the mission itself and probably blow Nat's cover, because unlike her he's not a spy. Even Natasha thought Cap was overreacting to the situation. Probably because the team had gotten to the hostages at that point and was on its way off of the ship, with a major part of that mission being completed. Let me point out, during this, while Nat is going to collect SHIELD data from the computer, Steve decideds to have a ******* **** measuring contest and fight some random dude hand to hand because of a dumbass taunt, during a ******* RESCUE OPERATION, then he wants to talk about "the team needed your help Natasha". ***** what the **** were you doing wasting time then?

 

[Cashflow]

It all comes to the famous military line, that info is classified and above your pay grade.

Captain Nazi has control issues and has this weird belief that he has to know absolutely everything. But on the flip sid doesn't feel the need to share everything with others. He understands compartmentalizing only when it is convenient for his agenda.

 

[Mambalorian]

It all comes to the famous military line, that info is classified and above your pay grade.

Captain Nazi has control issues and has this weird belief that he has to know absolutely everything. But on the flip sid doesn't feel the need to share everything with others. He understands compartmentalizing only when it is convenient for his agenda.

Right. Steve acting like he's the President.

You are a captain.

Not major.

Not colonel.

Not general.

A captain.

Shut up and do what your told soldier!

 

[IATT]

Steve is just like every old man. He likes how things used to be.

I personally can't blame him for not having faith in the system are the Hydra/Shield thing tho

You do realize he was really a major in his past life right.. Tommy Lee jones was the HNIC throughout first avenger

Then fury was in charge during avengers 1

Then he worked for shield in WS




In each of those films something has explicitly come up to show the convenience of things when it comes to what he says and judges people for and what he actually does

 

[IATT]

Right. Steve acting like he's the President.

You are a captain.

Not major.

Not colonel.

Not general.

A captain.

Shut up and do what your told soldier!

He's a major by actual milatary rank.. Which is lower than captain

 

[pmatic]

The end of TWS

Elaborate? I've seen TWS quite a few times and even watched it again last weekend and I dont recall seeing that

 

[everysingletime]

I can't belive yall actually slandering Cap for caring more about hostage lives than some Shield files

IM fans are wild!

 

[Mambalorian]

He's a major by actual milatary rank.. Which is lower than captain

I'm pretty sure major is above captain. It's why Carol Danvers outranks him (said so in an episode of Avengers EMH)

 

[jays25]

I can't belive yall actually slandering Cap for caring more about hostage lives than some Shield files

IM fans are wild!

Way to fail at reading comprehension No one's saying there's a problem with caring about hostage lives. The point is that the hostage lives were safe because of Steve and his team and Fury specifically ensured that would be the case by sending Cap on the mission to begin with. Steve then gets angry because his superior didn't make him aware of the Shield files mission, even though the way his superior set the mission up allowed for both goals to be flawlessly achieved.

 

[IATT]

Also, technically speaking with majority of the avengers being US citizens they would have already been breaking international laws and treaties signed at various points throughout history..

But pretty sure the accords was being done as a political move and to get it through to avengers that these things do exists (hence why you end up with redundancy in legislation, because things that already covered in the law get specifically dealt with because of events and all that jazz)

As a former military officer, he should at least have some clue of that





Or at least should have gotten a lawyer to explain things to him (cause even if he did read it, I'm not sure it would have done any good)

 

[SneakerProSr.]

I can't belive yall actually slandering Cap for caring more about hostage lives than some Shield files

IM fans are wild!

But we make stuff up

 

[IATT]

He's a major by actual milatary rank.. Which is lower than captain

I'm pretty sure major is above captain. It's why Carol Danvers outranks him (said so in an episode of Avengers EMH)

True.. Just know he has the same rank from before Tony's ole man helped him with his vitamin S and made the shield

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Right. Steve acting like he's the President.

You are a captain.

Not major.

Not colonel.

Not general.

A captain.

Shut up and do what your told soldier!

He's a major by actual milatary rank.. Which is lower than captain

It's why I only refer to him as Steve.

He ain't no damn Captain.

 

[everysingletime]

The hostages were safe, all thanks to Cap.

But if anyone had died, it would've definitely had been on BW and Fury for prioritizing files over civilian lives.

Excuse Cap for being a critical thinker instead of blindly following orders. If he had that mentality Hydra might probably still be all over Shield.

 

[Cashflow]

Scumbag Steve named himself a Captain. What a joke

 

[jays25]

The hostages were safe, all thanks to Cap.

But if anyone had died, it would've definitely had been on BW and Fury for prioritizing files over civilian lives.

Excuse Cap for being a critical thinker instead of blindly following orders. If he had that mentality Hydra might probably still be all over Shield.

How exactly did they prioritize files over civilians lives? Fury sent an entire squad, plus "the greatest soldier in history" after the civlilians and one person after the files. And the way you talk you seem to be under the impression that Captain America discovered the hostages, organized the mission himself, and then went after them, and Fury got in his way. He was only there to begin with because Fury sent him there, because Fury wanted those hostages saved. Again, Fury's plan went off without a hitch, so trying to discredit him based off of what-ifs is silly.

And I see we have another case of people acting as if Steve Rogers accomplishes everything on his own. The hostages were safe due to that entire team, which included Cap. "all thanks to Cap" You're out of your mind.