(Spoilers) ASOIAF Books Discussion (All Books Read Edition) (Spoilers)

but that scene was in the book and much worse...
so like ii told her same scene different character.
the people couldn't handle the book version if it happened
Dude it's a losing battle. I personally didn't care for the scene but I also didn't understand the outrage. I expected some people to be mad but not on the "I'm not watching this anymore" level. Sure rape is hard to see, but its been part of the show since season 1. Choosing to be mad that it happened to a character that you like is kinda messed up. It's either be mad at all rape in the show or none of it. Know the "what purpose did it have" argument is valid, but to the show runners there was a purpose and lets be honest. Even if the show runners gave a real valid reason for showing it, people would not accept it.

I think the answer is simple. Some people with power in the media through blogs and websites got mad and told people what they should be mad at. Everyone with a blog has the ability to be a pc cop now. That's my two cents on the subject. 
Well he made theon warm her up first. Forgot her name, sansa's friend. Sometimes we just react more to something in comparison to something else. I had more feels when the parent brought the bones of his child to dany and told her drogon killed the kid than when walda and her baby got hounded.
I know this chick that stopped watching Thrones after Ned killed Sansa's direwolf 
laugh.gif
 
Seeing Melisandre without her magic necklace broke my heart and had me hating the show for doing that to me.
 
Season preview a rando walks into Ramsay's court and says "I come bearing a gift."

Who do you think it is? 8o


My money's on Rickon. Osha was bringing him to the Umbers in S3. The Umbers, as Ramsey said, have joined the Boltons.

I don't think things will end well for Rickon.


@Shogun
Damn Right lol Pittman hates my guts I must be doing something right.

Let the record show that I don't hate anyone. I just have zero tolerance for trolling.

You antagonize all Jon Snow / Stark fans harshly, esp. in the show thread, then cry when your bizarre Stannis theories are shamed and claim you're being attacked.

We're always gonna be on the opposite of the spectrum because Stannis is your fave character and he's one of my least favorite, which is fine. Sparks great debates, imo.

But trolling is something I can't take part in.


For those in this group. Who truly read the books (once or more than once) and who just skimmed it or looked online about key notes

I read the books in 2014 because I couldn't wait for the S5 to start and frankly I wanted to know more about the happenings prior to the show.

I know I'm in the minority when I say Rhaegar is my favorite character from the books and I'm praying we get to see him on the show.

I was giddy when Lyanna rolled up in Bran's flashback.


I wish the book series was close to being done because I've heard enough fan theories for a lifetime. Ready for that stuff to be over.

Same.
 
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I wonder what the general census is from die hard book readers, the ones that's been reading this story from 1996, feel about Jon's resurrection.

Or I wonder if they dismiss the show entirely since it doesn't follow the books verbatim.

Probably the latter.
 
How is typing facts Trolling? I think we have very different defintions of what trolling is. If I was making stuff up out of my *** then yea that's trolling.
everything Ive typed on this board has been stuff straight from the book and/or show.
we all have sprinkled theories in here. but all of us have sprinkled theories off stuff we got straight from the book....
so how am I trolling

You antagonize all Jon Snow / Stark fans harshly, esp. in the show thread, then cry when your bizarre Stannis theories are shamed and claim you're being attacked.
e.

lmao.
This again was nothing more than going off fact.
if by Antagonize them, you mean me saying... Jon Snow is Dead... Well he was dead
or me before the season stating. Jon snow will stay dead... Well as far as we knew he was staying dead.

Bizarre Stannis Theories??????
you mean saying we didn't see him die so he's not dead.? is that Bizarre?

or saying he's been important in the story??
Which well yea he's been important to the stories.


and for the record I have never personally attacked anyone in this thread or the show thread.
In the show thread it's all love. they call me warden of salt i play the part and it's all laughs and reps for everyone. no one in there has came at me the way you've come at me in here.
I legit got you in your feels with some of your post against me. (me saying you were in your feels is not a personal attack so don't get up and arms about it.)
but don't deny you came at my neck.
Even 2/3 people in here were like damn dude calm down.

Your Fav character is someone we have snippets of information about.
My fav character is someone we have plenty of information about and I talk about that information given to me.
your fav character is something we have try to put stuff together and theorize and blah blah blah...
 
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I wonder what the general census is from die hard book readers, the ones that's been reading this story from 1996, feel about Jon's resurrection.

Or I wonder if they dismiss the show entirely since it doesn't follow the books verbatim.

Probably the latter.
We knew he would be resurrected. However the how was always in question. The scene we get next week in brans flashback is what i am most interested in.
 
but that scene was in the book and much worse...
so like ii told her same scene different character.
the people couldn't handle the book version if it happened
From what I was hearing from people around that time, it was the fact that Sansa wasn't raped in the books and the way they sort of used it as a character growth moment for Reek. Since the camera stayed trained on his face during the rape, some people took that as D&D trying to make that moment more so about Theon's growth than Sansa's.

I disagree with this, but it was a pretty common complaint around that time.

I think it worked. It was a ****** scene that made me feel uncomfortable. I think it served its purpose.

This was around the time when we first started to see D&D combining characters and streamlining stories, so I think some of the pushback also had to do with taking that moment from Jeyne and giving it to Sansa.
 
Lol my man waited all week to come in here and say that. How'd it feel having me on your mind all week praying that episode would happen?

Love how some have been completely ignoring my points about stannis and all you saw was "stannis probably isnt dead"
My point was never jon ISNT coming back. My point jons evidence for coming back and stannis being dead was the same. Which is/was no real evidence. Just theory.
So it happened now. Thats one theory checked off.
Lets see if the rest happens now...
And i def will still not back off that stannis can still be alive. Jon being alive doesnt change any of my theories

Stannis is still alive
Hound may still be alive as the guardian of the grave.
A+L =J
Dany is still a loser and probably wont make it to westeros
Dont know what your stannis theory is but i read an interview with the actor who plays stannis and he was real critical of the show and says he never understood its popularity and that he only did it for the money. Basically speaking as if he was done with the show. I do think that the show not showing him dead leaves his fate open to theories. They should have shown him dead.

As for A+L = J. I dont see any material in books or show that support that. Next week we get Tower of Joy scene, which is the location in Dorne where Rhaegar took Lyanna. As a book reader i believe this is where they will finally confirm R+L=J.
 
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stephen dillane did seem to hate being on the show. Guess it's normal for not everyone to like being on it or liking the story and savagery.
 
Dont know what your stannis theory is but i read an interview with the actor who plays stannis and he was real critical of the show and says he never understood its popularity and that he only did it for the money. Basically speaking as if he was done with the show. I do think that the show not showing him dead leaves his fate open to theories. They should have shown him dead.

As for A+L = J. I dont see any material in books or show that support that. Next week we get Tower of Joy scene, which is the location in Dorne where Rhaegar took Lyanna. As a book reader i believe this is where they will finally confirm R+L=J.
I think so too, but I pray...PRAY they don't add dialogue that wasn't in the book when Ned finds Lyanna. For example "take care of Jon" or something where she says his name. 
 
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To be fair davos charachter said the same thing about the show. He said i dont see why people are so obsessed its just boobs* and dragons. (Direct quote)
@GBdaman. Try to look for a you tube theory explaining or westeros.org has a really good article explaining it.

If i post mine it may be taken as my hatred and trolling for jon snow :rollin

Btw plot twist:
What if we find out jons name isnt jon... (such a random westori name btw)
And like hodor/willas he has another name.
And jon is only to conceal his name even more????...

Wait another crockpot theory by tdogg..
 
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I think so too, but I pray...PRAY they don't add dialogue that wasn't in the book when Ned finds Lyanna. For example "take care of Jon" or something where she says his name. 
I'm almost positive they will. In books he doesnt want you to know what all happened at the tower of joy. In the show they show you the scene and include dialogue. So be prepared to see young Ned walk off with the heir to the iron throne and possibly another child if some fan theories about meera are true. Some say she had twins and Ned took the boy and Howland Reed took the girl (Meera)
 
I'm almost positive they will. In books he doesnt want you to know what all happened at the tower of joy. In the show they show you the scene and include dialogue. So be prepared to see young Ned walk off with the heir to the iron throne and possibly another child if some fan theories about meera are true. Some say she had twins and Ned took the boy and Howland Reed took the girl (Meera)
I've heard that theory but I'm not a fan. Meera hasn't been nearly as important as Jon in the story  so her being a Targ doesn't really hold much weight in my opinion. 
 
To be fair davos charachter said the same thing about the show. He said i dont see why people are so obsessed its just boobs* and dragons. (Direct quote)
@GBdaman. Try to look for a you tube theory explaining or westeros.org has a really good article explaining it.

If i post mine it may be taken as my hatred and trolling for jon snow :rollin

Btw plot twist:
What if we find out jons name isnt jon... (such a random westori name btw)
And like hodor/willas he has another name.
And jon is only to conceal his name even more????...

Wait another crockpot theory by tdogg..
Just read the post on westeros.org for the A+L=J. Seems like its one guy who says "what if this happened" and doesnt provide any info to support it. Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and ran off to Dorne. Dont think she was ever in the kings presence. I do belive that Aerys could be Tyrions father tho. Probably why the dragons didnt kill him. Rhaegar does say the dragon has 3 heads so 2 more Targayens must emerge.

On a sidenote what interested me the most about episode 2 was the child of the forest telling Meera that Bran wouldnt be in the cave forever. Maybe he will be a head of the dragon by using his warging ability. Raven did tell him he would fly
 
Rhaegar and lyanna were in love was a theory tho......we have one camp saying she was kidnapped and iirc no one has specifically stated.. "they were in love" i think the closes has been little finger when he said to sansa. "Well is that what youve told" or "so the stories say" when talked about her being kidnapped.

And i dont think that quote was in the book.


I could very well be mistaken but ill happily concede if you can tell me who and what chapter it was said
.. "They were in love"


Edit: not concede r+L. But concede that its a 50/50 chance they were
 
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People probably just assumed since they describe Rhaegar as so dreamy and playing his harp. To me it always seemed like robert's affections were always one sided since we never hear who Lyanna was into. For all we know she could've been into Willis.
 
Just read the post on westeros.org for the A+L=J. Seems like its one guy who says "what if this happened" and doesnt provide any info to support it. Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and ran off to Dorne. Dont think she was ever in the kings presence. I do belive that Aerys could be Tyrions father tho. Probably why the dragons didnt kill him. Rhaegar does say the dragon has 3 heads so 2 more Targayens must emerge.

Can you post that A+L=J theory from Westeros.org on here.

I would ask Tdogg but he'll think I'm attacking him
 
Can you post that A+L=J theory from Westeros.org on here.

I would ask Tdogg but he'll think I'm attacking him
Ive posted on here twice (with in the last year) and both times youve dismissed it.

Matter of fact im sure i posted rather recently. Probably in march
 
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Man I thought this thread was dead since the show passed the books

Lots of good stuff in here

Just caught up
 
From Asoiaf.westoros.org
As is suggested in the text, Rhaegar planned some great meeting at the Tourney Of Harrenhal with all the Great Houses in attendance because of Aerys's erratic behavior. Varys gets wind of it and tells Aerys who decides to attend. I believe Aerys attends, blows up Rhaegar's plans to have a council of Great Lords and then informs him about his suspicions about other conspiracies by some Great Lords and how he needs Rhaegar to help him put them down. Aerys becomes suspicious of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and commands Rhaegar to find the mystery knight, but Rhaegar only finds the armor. Many suspect that Rhaegar deduces that it was Lyanna.

Now I'm a believer or more of a questioner of the actions of Rickard Stark prior to the Tourney. Understanding that most Great Lords tend to marry and foster their children to their bannermen to strengthen their loyalties, a Lord that looks outward for marriages and fostering is seen as ambitious. Like Lady Dustin mentions, Rickard had been very busy. Rickard Stark had betroved his heir to the eldest daughter of the Lord of the Riverlands. He fostered his second son at the Eyrie, building ties with his other southern neighbor in the Vale. With the betroval of his eldest daughter to Robert, the Lord of the Stormlands and Lysa Tully bethroved to Jaime Lannister, Rickard Stark would be in a powerful position with strong ties between 5 of the 7 Kingdoms. Imagine how abducting and holding his daughter hostage could keep Rickard in check, in case he had any treasonous ideas. Also this would be a way to draw Rickard out from the North, since invading through Moat Cailin was a non-starter, much less if the Vale, Westerlands and Riverlands sided with the North.

I believe Aerys becomes suspicious of the Knight of Laughing Tree, of course a sign of the North and that's why he sends Rhaegar after the mystery knight. I also believe Rhaegar falls in love with Lyanna and/or sees her as the fulfillment of the PtwP prophecy after he abducts her, they fall for each other at the Tower of Joy and Jon Snow is conceived. But at first he crowns Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty to let her know, he knows she was the mystery knight and the true champion of the Tourney.

Now when Brandon delivers himself, Elbert Arryn the heir to the Vale and the heirs to Tully bannermen to the Red Keep demanding to kill Rhaegar, Aerys has his chance to punish the conspirators. He arrest all of them and gets Rickard, probably the chief conspirator, to come answer for his treason. After executing the Starks, he calls for the heads of Ned and Robert Baratheon. Since they were both attendees at the Tourney at Harrenhal, Aerys had reason to believe they were in on the conspiracy. Benjen, I believe was too young to be implicate, plus it would allow a Stark to remain in Winterfell who is too young to rebel. Aerys has Jaime as his hostage in the Kingsguard to keep Tywin in check. I think its worth noting that neither Hoster, Catelyn nor Edmure Tully were at the Tourney eventhough it was in the Riverlands and may have suggested to Aerys that they were just unwitting participants in a normal favorable marriage for a 1st daughter of a Great Lord. Jon Arryn could prove his loyalty by delivering Robert and Ned's heads.

Now this theory is to resolve a few nagging questions about Lyanna's abduction, primarily how insane an act it was for the Prince to abduct the daughter of a Great Lord who is promised to another Great Lord, just because he was infatuated with her. Or why Lyanna would run off with Rhaegar when she was bethroved to Robert. But if you look at it as a master stroke by Aerys to blow up the treasonous conspiracy of the Stark/Arryn/Baratheon/Tully/Lannister alliance, where Rhaegar was following orders and they don't fall in love until after the abduction, everyone's actions make more sense. That's why Aerys would back Rhaegar when Brandon comes looking for Lyanna, because Rhaegar wasn't acting alone. And thats why Aerys doesn't send for Rhaegar before the Battle of the Trident. It was because Aerys ordered Rhaegar to abduct and hold Lyanna hostage to break a conspiracy started by Rickard Stark, which Rhaegar might have opened himself up to at the Tourney of Harrenhal, if Varys hadn't uncovered it and warned Aerys.

This I think is especially GRRMish, as from the beginning we've been told that Aerys was mad and evil while the Starks were good and honorable when it would be brilliant if it was the Starks who started the rebellion, proving the unreliabilty of character POVs and how the victors write the history of wars.

Thoughts?

from Quora website
In Game of Thrones, could Aerys be Jon's father?
The Tourney at Harrenhal: Aerys is present, he is paranoid and mis-trusts his son and his noble lords. Lyanna is suspected of being TKLT, beating three squires who have bullied Howland Reed. Aerys fixates on TKLT, considering him (or her) an enemy, and finding that the knight has fled the next morning sends Rhaegar to find him (or her). The knight's armour are found in a tree.

This is evidence of affection between Lyanna and Rhaegar: his harp playing reduces her to tears and perhaps they have met before, perhaps she might have been considered as a bride for him before he married Elia. Rhaegar presents Lyanna with the crown of love and beauty: this could be because he has a passion for her (which may, or may not be reciprocated) or in recognition of her prowess in the tourney (assuming it was her and that Rhaegar knows).

We know that Aerys is paranoid, we also know that he is violent towards women, we know that he takes liberties with them. There's also a strong possibility that Ashara Dayne was raped at Harrenhal. When Rhaegar presents Lyanna with the crown, Aerys might conclude that they are in love and he would be afraid of this progressing and Rhaegar having access to the armies of the North. By attacking Lyanna, he hurts his son, and the Starks, and Robert Baratheon. Who would Lyanna tell? We know she flees Harrenhal overnight.

From all descriptions of Rhaegar, the abduction of Lyanna is out of character. The two of them running away together to set up a love nest is out of character for them both: the Starks are a close family. However, if Rhaegar found Lyanna and Aerys had attacked her, the two of them fleeing to the Tower of Joy makes more sense.

Could Rhaegar have taken Lyanna with her consent to protect her?

Lyanna can't go home: if her family find out what's happened to her they will declare war. She will be afraid for her father and brothers. Rhaegar, by all accounts is honourable: if his father has raped her, he would see it as his duty to protect her. If she does not want her family to know, he would respect her wishes. At some point it will become apparent that Lyanna is pregnant.

Lyanna is in the Tower of Joy protected by the Kingsguard (so that whatever happens to Rhaegar she is safe). It's also close to Starfell, where Arthur Dayne's sister is pregnant. This is where Ned finds her and learns the truth. This is where he promises to keep her secret and protect her son.

There are indications that Ned does not think badly of Rhaegar. Her body lies in the crypt with a harp in the place of a sword. Would he acknowledge his sister's rapist in that way? If Aerys is the father, keeping Lyanna's secret is even more important: what would Robert, the new king, do to the baby if he found out?

My theory is that Rhaegar sacrifices everything, including his reputation to protect Lyanna, and that by trying to avoid war, he actually brings it about. This leaves Howland Reed as the only person that knows the truth


-Keynotes- (sprinkled with some of the things i think as well)
-Aerys already killed the Stark Father and Brandon Stark, so he raped Lyanna as well
-Rhaegar wants to protect Lyanna more so than love her and wants to dethrone is father.
-The only way to do that was to try and meet with the rebellion and broker a truth things turn out bad because Robert has just too much rage on that battlefield to listen.
-Ned left Dayne alive in order to protect the kid and followed howland reed to protect the baby. (separate Dayne theory i've seen)
-Promise me ned was more about not killing the baby even though it was Aerys. as angry as robert was it is doubtful he would've killed the baby since it was still a stark if it was rhaegars, but more likely to kill it if it was Aerys.
-Aerys was mad about the whole tourney thing and knew $^it was going to hit the fan with what rhaegar did so he pretty much expanded it.

(if you're going for the Dragon has 3 heads theory and you say Jon, Dany, Tyrion)
-The theory of Tyrion being Aerys child. Puts him as one of the Dragons.
- Dany is Aery's true born. She's a head of the dragon
-why would Rhaegar's son be a Dragon to when he already had 2 kids to which both aren't/weren't?
wouldn't it make more sense if the 3 heads came from the same person if we already think 2 out of the 3 is from Aerys.
what sense would it make that Rhaegar all of a sudden is also?
 
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