Question For Christians

[nikeairforce1]

Originally Posted by ILL LEGAL OPERATION

Originally Posted by NikeAirForce1

According to you, God created you without the ability to not sin.  Deductively, that has to mean God created you to sin. And with this inability to not sin, he commands you to worship him your whole life because you sin, BY HIS DESIGN.  He creates imperfect humans..and then punishes them for being imperfect. How is this fair?  
If you designed a robot without the ability to not kill (therefore he has to kill),  would you not be responsible for the robot's killings?

Let me ask you 2 questions (I'm assuming you're a Catholic with the whole Holy Trinity thing):

1.  Is evolution real?

2.  Did the story of Adam and Eve literally happen?  

I don't know where you got that from my dude...

...if I believed God created us without the ability to sin, you would have been able to quote me on it because that's what I would have typed.

There was a mistake in your deductive reasoning that leaves your underlying conclusion flawed, so I'll make a motion to dismiss everything else you typed because your overall premise of my stance is inherently incorrect.

I will answer your two questions though (from my personal perspective of course, and naw bro - I'm not Catholic):

1) I can't definitively say whether or not evolution is real because I wasn't there, but I can say that scientific findings certainly support the theory that we may have evolved from a prior species - I don't have a gripe with that. As a modern day species we've been given the wisdom and technology to figure out some of our planet's mysteries - I don't dispute the findings of evolution/dinosaurs/or whatever Pinky and The Brain come up with next - I just know that God is the source of it and allows us to piece certain clues together.

2) Literally "Adam and Eve?" Not really - how would you explain who their children procreated with? Most biblical scholars believe that Genesis was written by Moses. Think about that for a second...

...if that's true, then that means that book of the Bible was written by a Jew to explain the creation of the world to other Jews. The Bible wasn't written to explain scientific mysteries or other questions that have mind !%*#*! us since eternity. How do we know how long it took to create the earth if the sun (which we use to tell time) wasn't even created until like the middle of the 7 days? Day 1 through 3 coulda been 5 gazillion years for all we know.

I don't have a concrete answer any more than you, or any other scientist/paleontologist/anthropologist/who ever else...

...I just give God the glory and the credit as the source.


And offbad - miss me with that bull +@%@.



You said God "intentionally created us to be this crippled species."  This is where you chose "the latter" in your previous post.  The discussion was about human nature and sin.  You're saying as humans, we can't NOT sin.  I know it's a double negative.  +
But if you take that position, then deductively, humans HAVE TO SIN BY DESIGN.  God designed us to sin. This is not to say that God created us ONLY to sin, but human nature to sin is by DESIGN as intended by God.

Am I wrong somewhere here?  Point it out.  You clearly said that we can't NOT sin.  meaning we have to sin.  God designed humans to sin, and he forces us worship him or be punished because we sin. How is that fair?

First Answer: Fair enough.

My second question was the most important one.

Since we agree that the Adam and Eve story is not real, where does the original sin come from?  If Eve never eats that fruit, then there is no original sin. 
If there is no original sin, then Jesus did not have to come down here and die for us.  And if Jesus did die for us, it was for a sin that NEVER HAPPENED.
Jesus died for an IMAGINARY SIN and he's making all of us pay for it.

 

[tupac jordan]

Did Mohammed marry a 6 year old girl in the Koran?

 

[antonlavey]

tkthafm wrote:

---

Of course they are wrong... but not for the language they are in, obviously.

How you could imply that from my post leads me to believe you are the delusional one here, or trying to straw-man a bit too hard.


"why are they wrong..."

Because they have no validity/evidence unlike Islam with the Qur'an (which I already explained why it's special/different from any other religious text)

lol you didn't explain anything or give any evidence-everything you have said so far has been subjective-A hindu person would give you a reason for Hindu's validity that is just as subjective


Yo look my book is so beautiful and sounds good to my ears, that's evidence - Your honor ignore all the facts, I'm bout to read you this Haiku with palindrome

 

[antonlavey]

This is literally every argument tkthafm has made in this thread

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by TeamJordan79

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Because they have no validity/evidence unlike Islam with the Qur'an (which I already explained why it's special/different from any other religious text)

Subjectivity.

He doesn't know what that means

 

[an dee 51o]

Originally Posted by ILL LEGAL OPERATION

And on top of that, we only use like what, 10% of our brains?

If only god had created a species that could use its ENTIRE BRAIN....

wait...

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by hoop24


I don't know if anyone has posted this yet...Jesus won't come until the gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached unto the whole world...meaning every living soul will have the chance to hear the gospel preached and a chance to except Jesus as their Lord and Savior. That means that even if there are lost tribeshid in mountains thatpeople from the outside world are unable to reach, those souls willeventually hear the gospel...meaning God will send someone to them some how some way. Matt. 24:14explains this...really verse 3 on down, but verse14 clearly states it.

Guess what, WHY does everyone need to hear about your jesus?
Thats the point. Especially if they're doing just fine?

Why don't you want to hear about Islam? How do you know they don't have the better message?

And you're making this up that "eventually they would hear it"...you have no proof of this and are saying this only to support what you want to promote.

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Again, obviously man is imperfect (who would argue otherwise ?)

Our nature/pursuit of desires can lead to evil and sin. (Which the devil exploits). But we also have free will. The entire point of Islam is to submit to God and strive to worship him, do good deeds and avoid sin. It's a test -> that's his will, to test us. That's our only reason for existence. If we were created without free will or totally "good" or totally "evil" then it would be pointless.
and yes, that's the language God chose. Don't see how that's worth 30

The whole point of life is to SUBMIT?

No wonder the bible and koran get away with slavery so easily. You're being groomed to be docile sycophants.

You don't have free will if you have to submit to another entity. HELLO?!

And how do you know thats our reason for existence?

God chose a language that was common in a particular part of the world? So I guess thats why Gods also oddly wrote in the languages used in the same parts of the world their religions started. Romans? Latin. Greece? Greek. Zoroastrians? Persian. Chinese Old World? Cantonese Mandarin. Native American Religions? Their indigenous languages. Norse mythology? Nordic languages. Judaism? Hebrew/Aramaic. Christianity? Old English. Islam? Arabic.

You really can't be that deluded. You REALLY can't be that deluded. I hope to your god you are being serious here. ESPECIALLY considering that the bible INFLUENCES much of Islam...

So again, did the abrahamic god get it wrong the first two times?

Its funny you think Islam is the right translation of the abrahamic god...because in saying "abrahamic god" you're identifying that its ONE type of god and one that also influenced three other interpretations of it including christianity and judaism...

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Again, why are you ignoring free will ?

Yes, God purposefully created us with the capacity to sin. Doesn't mean we are slaves to our desires. If you choose to sin, you should still be punished because you have free will. You choose your fate.

It's that simple.
(I'm out for now, I'll be back to answer more later)

God created us to give us the only choice to worship him (like a "king" oddly...

) and calls that free will?

ON top of that, if you claim god knows and can do EVERY THING then he clearly knew he created gays, disabled people, and people who didn't believe in that god. So is your god not capable of "fixing" his mistake?

Also if god created us with the ability to "sin" why would you worship it? It CREATED YOU WITH A DEFAULT THAT YOU WOULD COME BACK TO IT AND ASK FOR HELP?

Its like the doctor who makes you sick then sells you the cure. That is immoral and utterly inhumane. Yet "makes sense" to you???

Giving someone options then punishing them for using those options IS NOT FREE WILL.

Would you worship the army of an invading country who killed your mother because they "rule" you now?

On top of that, why is god soegotistical? Why is it so self serving and why does an all knowing god even get jealous in the first place?

Its not "simple" when you keep contradicting yourself.

Originally Posted by ILL LEGAL OPERATION

Originally Posted by So Nyuh Shi Dae

The point is that a perfect god created an imperfect being.God either failed when he created us or he intentionally created us to be this crippled species.On top of that, whichever the case, he is responsible for any evil that we do because, without the creator, we wouldn't be sinful. So you believe that god failed, in one way or another at creating us and is just in punishing us for how he created us? If I sin, it's because that's what I was created to do, so why should I be punished for that?

The latter...

...I'm of the belief that we were created by God and given almost unlimited dominion over this earth as the most intellectually advanced species this planet has ever seen. And on top of that, we only use like what, 10% of our brains?

Yet I also believe that we were created with a void that only our Creator could fill - if we could solve every problem, then what's the need for God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit?

Why would I lean on God if I could fix everything the ILL LEGAL OPERATION/JohnnyCage202 way?

I don't believe God failed in creating us at all - I don't care how many specials they run on NatGeo, no other animal on this earth is effin' with us. Three months from now they get a dolphin that can work an iPod? Cool - makes for good conversation and all, but holla at me when Flipper can figure out a way to create one. [DJ Khaled] We the best!! [/DJ Khaled]...

...God is no more responsible for our sins than my parents would be if I so happened to choose to walk outside and shoot three people in the face - that would be something that I explicitly chose to do - that would have no reflection upon my mother and father who took the time to raise me correctly.

Rest assured, God knows exactly how prone to sin we are - that's why He sent His son. Christ weeps for us on the daily because it's like, "Look at 'em - they'll never get it right"...

...Christ is our advocate - think of him as Tom Hagan to Michael Corleone - think of him as the one who could go to God like, "Yo, I know this boy ain't got nuthin' but a pocket fulla Trojans, cigs, and weed...but I know his heart and I know how hard he tries. I know you're disappointed, and you've got every right to be, but chill - lil man is one of us. That's what I died for, remember?" And the wild part about is, Christ is our advocate to God, but God already loves us - like, "you're already my child and I love you, and to show you how much I'll have my actual Son sit here and speak on your behalf."

Does that mean I got carte blanche to just go around drinkin' all day/smokin' all day/anally smashin' random women while 2 Live Crew plays in the background and some 16 year old runaway sniffs coke in the corner waitin' for her turn to ride me? Not at all...

...we were all created into a world of sin, but none of us were created TO sin.

One of those, "I was hood raisedinLDP D.C., but I'm not a hood productofLDP D.C." kinda deals.

And mind you, I rep my flag and my flag only - so I'm speaking solely from the perspective of Christianity - I respect everyone's religion, but I won't attempt to explain their's...

...because I don't know it.

If this isn't the most Herp-Derpiest post EVER.



So you're the reason we can't pass legislation to prevent people from wasting natural resources on this planet. You think god "created" it all for YOU.




Again with this rampant and innatenarcissism. You are a solipsist. You only see the world through your own eyes and fail to account forpossibilitiesthat exist for other people. You lack actual empathy and perspective.


BTW...just BELIEVING SOMETHING DOES NOT NOR WILL IT EVER MAKE IT TRUE....IN THAT CASE I BELIEVE I CAN ACTUALLY FLY.




On top of that, your argument is flawed about humans being gifted. We may be more able to "think" using our largely encephalized brains, but we are still limited when it comes to capabilities like other animals.




Some animals can see better in other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. Some can fly. Swim farther. Run faster. Leap higher. See more. Etc etc...




For every benefit you can name of being a human, I can tell you one that hurts us.




We aren't special at all.

That 10% thing is wrong btw. We use way more than that. Its a false statistic because we try to map out all areas of the brain for activity based on mass and expected areas of activation. I was a neurosci major. Speak lightly on things you know nothing of. It saddens me. On top of that, how would that even prove that we are "gods animals?" It just would mean that we use a certain part of our brain if nothing else.




Does the fact that milk is $X.XX/gallon mean that god exists?




No?




Didn't think so.




So don't make that mistake again.




Hurray! Thinking about problems is hard!




If we could solve everything what would be the point of god? What type of question is that? Why are you assuming god is even there in the first place?




There is no evidence or proof of a god, christ, or holy spirit. You can't prove that. its what you THINK. You can't substantiate those claims. They are wild speculations that have gotten out of hand to the point that you just believe ANYTHING you THINK.




Maybe you should learn to LEAN ON YOUR DAMN SELF and start to make big boy grown up decisions about your life.




Ask your parents who they leaned on when they raised you. Each other? Damn right.




Cause praying doesn't put food on the table. Praying doesn't by pampers and similac. Praying doesn't buy you school shoes or lunch meat.




They worked hard and they hustle to provide for their kids.




All of a sudden TRYING TO WORK HARD IS DIFFICULT SO WE NEED GOD.




I'm sorry, i'm too busy trying to figure out how to live life to be worried about some magical thinking...and frankly, I think you are too.




Again, false argument.




Tell me when you can hold your breath for an hour and ill holla back.




Until then i'm out.




Tell me when you can hunt for your food in the wild with only your bare hands and i'll holler back.




Humans aren't the only animals that can use their own forms of technology...and since you've seen the shows on TV, you know how much of a lie this is.




You have admitted to SEEING WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE and dismissing the rest. You lie to yourself and fail to accept reality.




EXACTLY MY POINT




How do you decide what god is responsible for and what YOU are responsible for?


You're making it up my dude.




YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS.




You can't claim God made you and knows everything and claim to have free will under this instance.




Either god made you do it...or YOU made yourself do something.




my goodness you're a mess.




Staying out of sunday school would prevent this sort of rampant emotional crap argument that doesn't mean anything.


it sounds nice, but guess what? It doesn't mean anything.




Christ weeps? God gets mad? What the hell? The same god that CREATED everything? And knows everything? and has plans for us? So either its in control or its not.




make up your mind dude.




And what is "sin" in the first place? Some random rules god made up that none of you follow in the first place?




You do an awful lot of promoting of this mythological being to not even take this "sin" stuff seriously.




Ah...the "but I try hard" speech.




Keep it.




So you just want to be able to make stuff up with EACH and every chance you get and have your "get out of jail free" card.




On top of that...let me get this straight:




God is an advocate to HIMSELF using an entity IT CREATED called Jesus which was god in the human form toadvocatefor things IT CREATED TO ITSELF?!




Sounds like a sick game of ME, MYSELF, and I.




Your god is a merciless tyrant who only appeals to ITSELF and cares only about having peasants to stroke its ego...if it even exists.




WELP....CONGRATS! YOU'VE PROVED THAT YOU DONT NEED A RELIGIOUS FIGURE OR GOD TO MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS. YOU HAVE THE CAPABILITY OF DOING RIGHT OR WRONG BASED ON KNOWING THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS IN A SOCIETY BASED ON LAWS IT COMES TOGETHER TO CREATE AND ENFORCE ON ITSELF.




HOLD UP...NOW WAIT A MINUTE...didn't you JUST say we are born sinners?

gets hard to keep up with all those pre-programmed lines you have to remember as a christian, huh?




Theyre just bullet points that have been mashed into your head and you don't even think about what they mean or what they're saying but you just KNOW to say it on command.




You're a drone for your cause and its working, isn't it?




And lastly...




Another argument that doesn't mean anything to me.




You would benefit from trying to learn about other religions.




It would show you how much christianity STOLE from previous religions and how your current practice of faith is no where near what the original version was. It will also illustrate how little you know about world history and the influence of religion onsocieties. Your religion is unoriginal, uninspired, and un-real.




Smarten up.




There is nothing wrong with gaining perspective and refusing to do so in incredibly ignorant.

Originally Posted by ILL LEGAL OPERATION

Originally Posted by NikeAirForce1

According to you, God created you without the ability to not sin. Deductively, that has to mean God created you to sin. And with this inability to not sin, he commands you to worship him your whole life because you sin, BY HIS DESIGN. He creates imperfect humans..and then punishes them for being imperfect. How is this fair?
If you designed a robot without the ability to not kill (therefore he has to kill), would you not be responsible for the robot's killings?

Let me ask you 2 questions (I'm assuming you're a Catholic with the whole Holy Trinity thing):

1. Is evolution real?

2. Did the story of Adam and Eve literally happen?

I don't know where you got that from my dude...

...if I believed God created us without the ability to sin, you would have been able to quote me on it because that's what I would have typed.

There was a mistake in your deductive reasoning that leaves your underlying conclusion flawed, so I'll make a motion to dismiss everything else you typed because your overall premise of my stance is inherently incorrect.

I will answer your two questions though (from my personal perspective of course, and naw bro - I'm not Catholic):

1) I can't definitively say whether or not evolution is real because I wasn't there, but I can say that scientific findings certainly support the theory that we may have evolved from a prior species - I don't have a gripe with that. As a modern day species we've been given the wisdom and technology to figure out some of our planet's mysteries - I don't dispute the findings of evolution/dinosaurs/or whatever Pinky and The Brain come up with next - I just know that God is the source of it and allows us to piece certain clues together.

2) Literally "Adam and Eve?" Not really - how would you explain who their children procreated with? Most biblical scholars believe that Genesis was written by Moses. Think about that for a second...

...if that's true, then that means that book of the Bible was written by a Jew to explain the creation of the world to other Jews. The Bible wasn't written to explain scientific mysteries or other questions that have mind !%*#*! us since eternity. How do we know how long it took to create the earth if the sun (which we use to tell time) wasn't even created until like the middle of the 7 days? Day 1 through 3 coulda been 5 gazillion years for all we know.

I don't have a concrete answer any more than you, or any other scientist/paleontologist/anthropologist/who ever else...

...I just give God the glory and the credit as the source.


And offbad - miss me with that bull +@%@.

HOLY CRAP WHY ARE THESE ARGUMENTS SO BAD?
You just contradicted yourself from the post above.

I'm not even sure you know what deductive reasoning is, other than a buzzword for you.




How are you so unsure of other things THAT WE CAN OBSERVE ALL THE TIME and yet you're sure a god did it?




HOW CAN YOU BE SO CERTAIN GOD DID IT?




PROVE THIS.




On top of that, there is no "believing" evolution.




You either understand it, or you do not.


its real.




its as real as when we learned what electricity really was and how to manipulate it.




In fact, if you've ever had a flu shot or taken antibiotics or even genetically modified food, you have our understanding of evolution to THANK for this.




I can definitively say you are completely and absolutely WRONG.




If you want more information, I would love to educate you on this topic but for the time being, I must say that you are in dire need of a basic science education on the matter, and I am willing to help you do that.




Actually, bibical scholars don't know who wrote most of the bible but most of it is so different in writing style that they can piece together the time period AND the fact that there were different authors.




And I hope you don't mean the same moses that lived to be how old again?

...yeah that guy was a credible source of information.




On top of that, if moses wrote genesis then CLEARLY adam and eve didn't exist smart guy. If it was written by someone else in the bible then that means the story didn't happen AS STATED.




And if you listen to the bible, the only logical conclusion is that they committed incest.

AGAIN WITH THIS RIDICULOUS LOGIC.




Of course it wasn't written to explain scientific stuff...thats WHAT SCIENCE IS FOR...to show us what REALLY goes on. So you're admitting that science DOES know more about the world than the bible.




HERE YOU ARE JUST TROLLING.




YOU ALREADY ADMIT THAT THE "LIGHT" WAS CREATED ON THE FIRST DAY AND THE "SUN" WAS CREATED ON THE FOURTH DAY AND YOU KNOW THAT IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE BUT NOW YOU WANT TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING?!?!




AND ON TOP OF THAT...WHY CALL IT A DAY IF ITS NOT A DAY?!? JUST ADMIT THAT IT IS A POORLY WRITTEN STORY...A FABLE...A TALE...A LEGEND...A MYTH!

Yeah but at least when I don't understand something I don't say GOD did it.

I'm honest enough to say I DONT KNOW BUT I WILL TRY TO FIGURE IT OUT.

Saying "god did it" doesn't mean anything...it just is a guess because you REALLY dont know...you can't prove that god did it and you really aren't even sure yourself. That answer just is an assumption and speculates that is what you think did it ultimately. It doesn't mean anything.

So what happens when we figure something out? Is that still god or is that us?

Like when we didn't know how people got sick, or how natural weather disaster occur, or electricity, or physics, or whatever else you've benefitted from in the past 100 years?

Its funny how you reference ACTUAL SCIENTISTS but say that they have NO clue...yet again against all the evidence in the world to suggest things like evolution, you get to say "god did it"

But again you're so keen on saying you have Free Will...

so do you have free will or not?!

STOP CONTRADICTING YOURSELF

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

This is literally every argument tkthafm has made in this thread

This is what he was actually doing...

 

[teamjordan79]

lol son went in

No wonder the bible and koran get away with slavery so easily. You're being groomed to be docile sycophants.�

this is really what stands out for me when i go the mid east. Straight up mudsill.

God created us to give us the only choice to worship him (like a "king" oddly... ) and calls that free will? 
 
womp womp

 

[sillyputty]

 

[ogskizzel]

nope, they in...

 

[curbyourenthusiasm]

whats funny is these threads still come up

and no christian has ever made sense of the hypocracy of christian free will....

yet, these threads continue

 

[the great hibachi]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

http://s953.photobucket.com/albums/ae14/illmaticaddict/?action=view&current=1VHjf.gif

 

[sillyputty]

[table][tr][td]
Is Atheist Money Too Controversial for the American Cancer Society?

By Greta Christina, AlterNet
Posted on October 10, 2011, Printed on October 11, 2011
[url=http://www.alternet.org/story/152685/is_atheist_money_too_controversial_for_the_american_cancer_society]http://www.alternet.org/s..._american_cancer_society[/url]

I'll say this clearly, right up front: The American Cancer Society did not explicitly reject a massive donation offer from a non-theistic organization on the basis of it being a non-theistic organization.

That was not the stated reason given for rejecting a matching offer of $250,000 from the Foundation Beyond Belief and the Todd Stiefel Foundation to sponsor a national team in the upcoming Relay for Life. (An offer that, as a matching offer, was likely to bring in a total of half a million dollars for the American Cancer Society.) Nobody at the ACS has ever said, in words, "We don't want our organization to be associated with atheists. It's too controversial. We don't want atheist money." And when asked if this was the case, they have denied it.

It's just difficult to reach any other conclusion. In the place of clear explanations, there has been an ongoing series of evasions, imprecisions, conflicting answers, moved goalposts, apathy, and even hostility.

Here's the deal. A few months ago, Todd Stiefel -- philanthropist and founder of the Stiefel Freethought Foundation, which provides financial support to atheist and other nonprofit and charitable organizations -- approached the American Cancer Society with an offer. He wanted local atheist groups around the world to participate in the American Cancer Society's Relay for Life program, as a national team, under the banner of the humanist charitable organizationFoundation Beyond Belief. In order to make this happen, he made a generous offer: a $250,000 matching offer from the Todd Stiefel Foundation, which, as a matching offer, was likely to bring in a half million dollars to the American Cancer Society.

And he was stonewalled.

The offer was initially approved, and the Foundation Beyond Belief even brought on an intern to manage the program. But then the American Cancer Society stopped responding. Repeated emails and phone calls from Stiefel were not returned for over a month. And the eventual responses from the ACS ranged from apathetic at best to hostile at worst. As Stiefel told AlterNet:

Reuel Johnson of ACS was completely disinterested in the matching gift. He made no effort to try to gain the money and attempted to ignore that the offer was even made. When I brought it up to him, he referred to it as merely "fine" and then started complaining about how it was a hassle to ACS to have to try to track the challenge. Of course, it should not have to be a hassle; they have an automated system to track team and individual performance. I don't know why he acted like this, but something clearly was amiss. 

After many go-arounds, Stiefel was finally told no. He was told that the Relay for Life program was focusing on corporate sponsors for the National Team program, and was no longer including nonprofits in the program. Despite the massive size of the offer from the Stiefel Foundation -- and despite the fact that several nonprofits are currently participating in the program, including Girl Scouts of the USA, Phi Theta Kappa and DeMolay International -- the ACS insisted that nonprofit participation in this program wasn't cost-effective, and would no longer be welcome.

Every attempt to find an alternative form of participation for the Foundation Beyond Belief was stymied. Stiefel offered to participate as a corporate team, since the FBB is a 501(c)(3) corporation. This offer was rejected. Stiefel asked if they could simply be put on the drop-down list of national team partners (which, again, does include several nonprofits). This offer was rejected. Stiefel even offered to have the FBB participate as a National Youth Partner -- they have a network of hundreds of non-theist youth groups who were eager to participate. This offer was rejected, in an especially contradictory series of statements, first telling Stiefel that the youth program was being accelerated, then saying it was being de-emphasized.

The American Cancer Society was certainly happy to accept a $250,000 donation from the Stiefel Freethought Foundation and/or the Foundation Beyond Belief. They made that very clear. They just weren't willing to let them have any sort of national participation in the Relay for Life. They could participate at the local level only. (You can read more detailed background on this story, including comments from both Stiefel and the American Cancer Society, at the Friendly Atheist blog, here, here, and here.)

Now, in case you're wondering if this is standard behavior, find someone who works as a development director for a nonprofit. Ask her what her response would be to a $250,000 matching offer from a philanthropic foundation. And ask if her organization would be drooling, celebrating wildly, and bending over backward to make it happen -- or if they would be evading, delaying, dodging, deflecting, changing their stories, treating the potential benefactor with irritation and dismissal, and finding an endless series of excuses for not accepting the offer?

And now ask: Why did it unfold this way with the American Cancer Society and the Foundation Beyond Belief?

Is it because the Foundation Beyond Belief are atheists?

For those who might be thinking this is just paranoia, a bit of context: Anti-atheist bigotry is anunfortunate reality. And even among people and organizations who aren't personally bigoted, atheists are still frequently seen as bringing unwanted controversy. Atheists put up billboards saying simply, "You can be good without God" -- and people freak out. Atheists march in a Christmas parade -- and people freak out. Atheist veterans march in a Memorial Day parade -- and get booed to their faces. Atheist students in public high schools try to organize groups -- and getroutinely stonewalled by their school administrations. Atheists try to take out ads on buses -- and the bus company changes their policy and stops accepting any ads from religious organizations, just so they don't have to run ads from atheists. Atheists get threatened, hounded from their communities, disowned by their parents, denied custody of their children, when they come out as atheists. Atheists customarily get treated as if association with them is a potentially controversial embarrassment at best, a dangerous toxin at worst.

So it's not unreasonable to think that an individual might be personally disinclined to have any dealings with atheists... or that an organization might want to avoid any public association with atheists, for fear of blowback. In fact, just a year and a half ago, the Mississippi chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union rejected a donation from atheist organizations... not because they personally had anything against atheists, but because, "the majority of Mississippians tremble in terror at the word 'atheist.'" (A decision that, to their credit, they later rescinded.) If the freaking ACLU is reluctant to be associated with atheist money because it's too controversial, it's not unreasonable to think the American Cancer Society might be as well.

But is that really the case? What, exactly, does the American Cancer Society have to say about all this?

Not a lot. When AlterNet contacted the American Cancer Society to comment on this story, Reuel Johnson, the primary person Stiefel had been dealing with over this matter, declined to be interviewed. Instead, the ACS gave this response:

Over the past several months the American Cancer Society has engaged in discussions with Todd Stiefel and the Foundation Beyond Belief regarding a very generous donation offer. We have repeatedly tried to come to an agreement regarding the offer but have been unable to do so. The public debate that has ensued, we believe, undermines the shared passion both organizations have for our mission of saving lives from cancer.

To be clear, the American Cancer Society turned down Mr. Stiefel's request that the Foundation Beyond Belief become a National Team Partner in our Relay For Life program. We have not turned down his offer of a donation to our mission, and we certainly don't want to discourage his or the Foundation Beyond Belief's participation in Relay For Life. We are grateful for their interest in saving lives from cancer.

We recognize that there are areas where our programs need improvement, and we work continuously to do so. For more information on the Relay For Life National Team Program, please call 1-800-227-2345 [or visit[url=http://www.acsworkplacesolutions.com/relayteamprogram.asp%5D]http://www.acsworkplaceso...om/relayteamprogram.asp][/url]

Please note: At no place in this response is there an actual answer to the straightforward question they were asked: "Why, specifically, did the American Cancer Society turn down the Foundation Beyond Belief's participation as a National Team Partner in the Relay For Life program, and the $250,000 matching offer accompanying it?" And at no place in this response is there an answer to the other straightforward question they were asked: "Were the FBB's participation and the matching offer turned down because the Foundation Beyond Belief is a non-theist organization?"

Those are simple questions. Those are reasonable questions. Those are questions that deserve answers. And this response ignored them. Only when pressed for direct answers to these questions did the ACS finally give a substantial response:

The Relay For Life National Team Partner program is aimed primarily at commercial corporations and their employee bases nationwide. Over the years, several non-commercial organizations have participated in the Relay For Life National Team Partner program; however, those engagements have not proved to be operationally efficient or cost effective for us. So we made the decision earlier this year to phase out the non-commercial part of the National Team Partner program. We have notified the participant organizations and are working with each of them to ensure their continued participation in Relay For Life and the Society's mission. For this same reason, we had to respectfully and regretfully decline the Foundation Beyond Belief's request to form a nationwide team.

The Society has not turned down the Foundation Beyond Belief's generous donation offer and encourage the group's continued participation in Relay For Life.

Okay. Fine. A little baffling, given the size of the donation that was being discussed... but not entirely unreasonable.

Except that it's in direct conflict with their first response.

Their first answer to this question: "We tried to figure out a way for the Foundation Beyond Belief to participate in this program, but weren't able to come to an agreement."

Their second answer: "We're phasing out participation in this program from non-commercial organizations."

Those aren't the same thing at all. In fact, they're directly contradictory. If the American Cancer Society was already phasing out participation in this program from non-commercial organizations... then how is it that they tried, for months, to find a way for the Foundation Beyond Belief to participate in it?

And more to the point: If the ACS really is phasing out participation in this program from non-commercial organizations... why didn't they just say that when the proposal was first made? It would have saved everyone a lot of time and heartache. FBB: "The Foundation Beyond Belief would like to sponsor a national team in the upcoming Relay for Life, with a matching offer of $250,000." ACS: "You know, we greatly appreciate your very generous offer, and we'd love to have you participate, but we're phasing out participation in this program from non-commercial organizations. Let's find another way that that the FBB can participate in this program, or find another public program that the FBB can participate in." End of a nice, simple story. Instead of the beginning of an ugly, convoluted one.

And when questioned about this matter by AlterNet... why didn't they give this answer the first time around? Why did they initially respond with a vague, evasive, generic non-response that ignored the questions actually being asked?

Given all this... does it seem likely that "We're phasing out participation in this program from non-commercial organizations" is really the answer? Or does it seem like an excuse hatched after the fact to cover a situation that had become an embarrassment?

I realize this is harsh. I want to be fair here, and I want to be clear. So I will say it again: The American Cancer Society did not explicitly reject a massive donation offer from a non-theistic organization, on the basis of them being a non-theistic organization.

It's just difficult to reach any other conclusion.

And in case you're thinking, "Why do those mean old atheists have to pick on the American Cancer Society? Why are they publicly embarrassing such a noble organization? Why do they have to make it all about them?" ask yourself this: If this were happening with any other organization -- if it were a Jewish charitable foundation, an African-American one, an LGBT one, that had tried to give the American Cancer Society a $250,000 matching offer and had gotten shot down -- would you be responding the same way? Would you be mad at the Jews, the African Americans, the queers, for calling attention to it? Or would you be writing enraged letters to the ACS, saying, "!**? My aunt has cancer, I donate $500 a year to the American Cancer Society -- and you're turning down $500,000 because the money comes from a segment of society that some people don't like?"

Are atheists really that tainted?

Read more of Greta Christina at her blog.

[emoji]169[/emoji] 2011 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: [URL]http://www.alternet.org/story/152685/[/url]
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[tkthafm]

Again, more examples of childish tactics.

Ignoring free will (obviously we CHOOSE to submit, we CHOOSE our actions ONCE we submit - hence Muslims sinning - how dumb do you have to be to not see this)... repeating arguments that have already been refuted... posting youtube videos in a poor attempt at discrediting me.... ignoring evidence provided... and posting poorly thought out "stream of conscious" type replies that are filled with wrong information and personal opinions w/o any evidence.

Are you that deluded that you don't recognize that I am well aware of subjectivity ? That's why I challenge you to find me another religious text that can compare to the Qur'an on any level... whether the scientific facts, historical facts, or literary prose. Pick one... I'll show you how it is full of error and contradiction and is clearly written by man; unlike the Qur'an.

"oh the science in the Qur'an was just about brushing teeth"

"oh this sentence fragment encourages murder"

"but God MADE us evil"

"but God got the message wrong twice"

If these are the tactics you have to resort to, it's obvious how weak your positions are. I don't think anyone here has enough knowledge of Islam to even begin attempting to criticize/"debunk" it if the past few pages have been any indication.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Again, more examples of childish tactics.

Ignoring free will (obviously we CHOOSE to submit, we CHOOSE our actions ONCE we submit - hence Muslims sinning - how dumb do you have to be to not see this)... repeating arguments that have already been refuted... posting youtube videos in a poor attempt at discrediting me.... ignoring evidence provided... and posting poorly thought out "stream of conscious" type replies that filled with wrong information and personal opinions.

Are you that deluded that you don't recognize that I am well aware of subjectivity ? That's why I challenge you to find me another religious text that can compare to the Qur'an on any level... whether the scientific facts, historical facts, or literary prose. Pick one... I'll show you how it is full of error and contradiction and is clearly written by man; unlike the Qur'an.

"oh the science in the Qur'an was just about brushing teeth"

"oh this sentence fragment encourages murder"

"but God MADE us evil"

"but God got the message wrong twice"

If these are the tactics you have to resort to, it's obvious how weak your positions are. I don't think anyone here has enough knowledge of Islam to even begin attempting to criticize/"debunk" it if the past few pages have been any indication.

IS IT FREE WILL IF YOU GET PUNISHED FOR DOING WHAT YOU WANT OR IF GOD MAKES YOU ONLY TO DO WHAT HE WOULD GET MAD AT?!?!

You can't call it SIN if you say we have free will!




WHO WROTE THE KORAN/QURAN DUDE? 



MEN. WROTE. THE. BOOK.

What the hell don't you GET?

MEN...not WOMEN...thus why WOMEN get POOPED on the ENTIRE BOOK. 

 

[curbyourenthusiasm]

how is it free will if god has a plan?

how does god have "gods will" if everything is a product of free will?

when something good happens to you, why do you thank god? you thank him because it was GODS WILL which TRUE free will contradicts directly...you cant have both..

when something bad happens, people find solice in relating it to god's plan or gods will, but god has absolutely no intervention in any aspect of our existance...if he did, then he didnt grant us TRUE free will...


so again, easily type out a response to the oldest contradiction of believing in any sort of "god"

i mean, no human since the beginning of recorded history has been able to do it, but random niketalker, please, enlighten the human race with information on how we have true free will at the same time any degree of divine intervention is present...please.


i missed that one...

 

[tkthafm]

Such poor logic.

Just because you have free will to choose doesn't mean what you choose is automatically right and thus you should be spared from punishment. You can CHOOSE to sin, and thus you are punished for that choice. God gave you this capacity, but also the capacity to resist. Obviously your will was not strong enough to resist your own desires/the devil's influence.

You say men/man wrote the Qur'an... congratulations, your statement means nothing.

and there is no contradiction between "God's will" and human "free will" ... You control your own actions. Obviously if something good happens to me as a byproduct of my actions I STILL thank God and vice versa. If I do something Good/bad I still recognize I MADE THAT CHOICE. On the other hand something I had no choice in (such as a natural disaster) is thus obviously God's will. We may have tests thrown at us and such (and the devil's constant whispering) but we still have free will in our choices. There are some circumstances however (stealing to avoid starvation) where sin can be acceptable. It's up to God to judge.

 

[foxdawg2000]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Such poor logic.

Just because you have free will to choose doesn't mean what you choose is automatically right and thus you should be spared from punishment. You can CHOOSE to sin, and thus you are punished for that choice. God gave you this capacity, but also the capacity to resist. Obviously your will was not strong enough to resist your own desires/the devil's influence.

You say men/man wrote the Qur'an... congratulations, your statement means nothing.

and there is no contradiction between "God's will" and human "free will" ... You control your own actions. Obviously if something good happens to me as a byproduct of my actions I STILL thank God and vice versa. If I do something Good/bad I still recognize I MADE THAT CHOICE. On the other hand something I had no choice in (such as a natural disaster) is thus obviously God's will. We may have tests thrown at us and such (and the devil's constant whispering) but we still have free will in our choices. There are some circumstances however (stealing to avoid starvation) where sin can be acceptable. It's up to God to judge.

does god talk to you? and if he does why you and not me? or my dog or my brother?

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Such poor logic.

I learn from the best

Just because you have free will to choose doesn't mean what you choose is automatically right and thus you should be spared from punishment. You can CHOOSE to sin, and thus you are punished for that choice. God gave you this capacity, but also the capacity to resist. Obviously your will was not strong enough to resist your own desires/the devil's influence.

Society comes together to decide what rules it should follow.
If we followed law according to the bible or the koran, we wouldn't have half the population we do now. 

Again, you are not making any damned sense.

God gives you a choose to do things...yet god is in charge of your life as this god created you and thus knows your past, present, and future...how does this work? 

You say men/man wrote the Qur'an... congratulations, your statement means nothing.

Oh really?
Except when you say this: http://niketalk.yuku.com/...hristians#reply-11720047

tkthafm wrote:

---

 Are you that deluded that you don't recognize that I am well aware of subjectivity ? That's why I challenge you to find me another religious text that can compare to the Qur'an on any level... whether the scientific facts, historical facts, or literary prose. Pick one... I'll show you how it is full of error and contradiction and is clearly written by man; unlike the Qur'an.

So again, you forget that you said the koran wasn't written by men...and that IF it was then it would be a fallible document...yet you clearly contradict yourself here. 

and there is no contradiction between "God's will" and human "free will" ... You control your own actions.

So...what???

So if i'm in control, what do I need a god for?

Obviously if something good happens to me as a byproduct of my actions I STILL thank God and vice versa.
So where do you decide if god is responsible for one thing and you are responsible for another?
Or do you get the praise for good things and god gets blamed for bad things?

If I do something Good/bad I still recognize I MADE THAT CHOICE.

Again, so why does god get the praise and credit?

On the other hand something I had no choice in (such as a natural disaster) is thus obviously God's will.

So you're telling me earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, tornadoes, el/la ninos/ninas, and global warming are god's will???
Are you living in the bronze age or not? 

We can predict the weather...NEXT WEEK... they couldn't do that 100 years ago....when floods came...thousands just...DIED. Was that apart of god's will?

Now if you live in Japan, your iphone will warn you of earthquakes....is that god's will? 

We may have tests thrown at us and such (and the devil's constant whispering) but we still have free will in our choices.

YET AGAIN...you're just showing that YOU ARE IN CONTROL...not some "god" that takes credit everytime you do something... 
On top of that, your devil doesn't exist either unless you can prove that too. 

So do bad things happen because of the devil or because of god or because of your mistakes in life or other people screwing you over?

There are some circumstances however (stealing to avoid starvation) where sin can be acceptable. It's up to God to judge.

So can you bend the rules? Because I know tons of poor people that get arrested for doing the same thing...

have seen oliver twist? or anything involving poor people? 

and why do you get to just say "god will judge" instead of reconciling that before you do it? Then you're free to do anything and just say "god will handle it"...isn't that just a means of dumping the need for your own thought on the backburner? 

Originally Posted by foxdawg2000

tkthafm wrote:

---

Such poor logic.

Just because you have free will to choose doesn't mean what you choose is automatically right and thus you should be spared from punishment. You can CHOOSE to sin, and thus you are punished for that choice. God gave you this capacity, but also the capacity to resist. Obviously your will was not strong enough to resist your own desires/the devil's influence.

You say men/man wrote the Qur'an... congratulations, your statement means nothing.

and there is no contradiction between "God's will" and human "free will" ... You control your own actions. Obviously if something good happens to me as a byproduct of my actions I STILL thank God and vice versa. If I do something Good/bad I still recognize I MADE THAT CHOICE. On the other hand something I had no choice in (such as a natural disaster) is thus obviously God's will. We may have tests thrown at us and such (and the devil's constant whispering) but we still have free will in our choices. There are some circumstances however (stealing to avoid starvation) where sin can be acceptable. It's up to God to judge.

does god talk to you? and if he does why you and not me? or my dog or my brother?


Its funny how god only reveals himself (the fact god has a gender is 

) to people who already believe in it.
I'd love to get confirmation of which god exists but for some reason they never talk to me 

 ...

 

[the natural mystic]

Sillyputty going H*A*M once again.

It's sad Logic cannot pierce through the wall "faith" or what I like to call the wall of ignorance.

Most religions are blackmail and fear mongering establishments. If you don't believe then you are going to hell right? so do you believe because you are afraid of hell or are you (jay-z) pious because god loves pious?(jay-z)

Believe in nothing but yourself.

 

[tkthafm]

What arguments are you even making ?

I read that post and really couldn't see a single point you made or how you showed I "contradicted" myself or how you typed up anything of any value at all. Just you posting your opinions (which are just that, opinions), asking dumb questions, and then patting yourself on the back for a job well done.

Another stream of conscious poorly thought out waste of space to litter the thread.


and the other guy, no God doesn't talk to me, but we have his words in the Qu'ran. Funny how such a dumb question can be asked to change the subject after your original argument on God's will contradicting Human will clearly got dismantled.

I honestly wonder how many more fallacies, youtube videos, pictures, and opinion based dribble you can keep flooding this thread with. It's entertaining.

and of course I believe in myself... as in my own free will/ability etc but I also believe my sole reason (as all other humans) for existance is to worship and obey God. You don't accept this... fine. You not accepting this fact (or fairy tale in your view

) does nothing to prove it does or doesn't exist. It's not an argument. You don't believe. I believe. My evidence is the Qur'an, you want to deny this evidence; that's on you. 

To the guy below, of course I would give myself credit for getting an A if I put the effort in (BECAUSE I CHOSE - hint: free will  - TO STUDY)..... but I still thank God.

 

[blackxme]

sillyputty 

And I'm with The Natural Mystic. Believe in yourself. If I study for a test and get an A you better believe I deserve the credit. The praise shouldn't go to something I can't see or have no true connection with.That goes for anything else too. What is so hard about simply having faith in yourself and giving yourself(or other people who helped) the credit for your successes.

These threads obviously aren't going to convert anyone to one side or the other. We all come into these threads with bias, but it's interesting to always look at differing viewpoints.

 

[rufiorufiorufio]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by RufioRufioRufio

أنت مجنون؟

reported

I don't speak Arabic but I feel like you definitely just called me the nword

Dude just because I disagree on things with doesn't mean i'd ever use such a hateful word.
lmao i google translated U MAD in arabic.

C'mon anton, we are too smart and cool of people to take it to that low level.

Even though we but head you still my dude.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

What arguments are you even making ?

I'm challenging your arguments for the existence of a god.
I'll make it incredibly simple for you since you refuse to directly answer a question.

I read that post and really couldn't see a single point you made or how you showed I "contradicted" myself or how you typed up anything of any value at all.

Was the Quran written by men or not?
Do we have free will OR not?

 Just you posting your opinions (which are just that, opinions), asking dumb questions, and then patting yourself on the back for a job well done. 
I have actually not posted any opinions of my own. I've merely evaluated your own thoughts.
Which of my questions were "dumb?" 

And, I take pride in my work.

Another stream of conscious poorly thought out waste of space to litter the thread.

Kinda like taking TWENTY THREE YEARS as you've said to write a "holy book" called the Quran, huh?
Tell me something. What did they do for the 22 years before the book was finished?

 Did they practice another religion? Did they only practice a piece of the religion? Did they sit around lawlessly? 

and the other guy, no God doesn't talk to me, but we have his words in the Qu'ran.

How do you know those are god's words? Seriously.
 HOW DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE DIDNT WRITE THAT? AND HOW CAN YOU SAY OTHER HOLY BOOKS ARE NOT THE WORDS OF GOD?

On top of that, if god doesn't talk to you, why do you pray to it/him/her/them?

Funny how such a dumb question can be asked to change the subject after your original argument on God's will contradicting Human will clearly got dismantled.

It actually did not get changed...you did not answer the question and you did in fact contradict yourself.
You admitted that slavery was not useful any more yet was condoned in the koran, you do no understand that you can't claim to have free will and yet gods plan still be active, you have also shown that the Quran was written by humans. 

I honestly wonder how many more fallacies, youtube videos, pictures, and opinion based dribble you can keep flooding this thread with. It's entertaining. 

I have plenty. 
If your god knows everything, can do anything, and can be everywhere, why are you so convinced that god didn't make me a minority nonbeliever on purpose? or that god made kids with down syndrome, ON PURPOSE. 

You can discredit my use of media, but as yet you have not addressed one point raised here. 

and of course I believe in myself... as in my own free will/ability etc but I also believe my sole reason (as all other humans) for existance is to worship and obey God.

How is this any different than North Koreans? They give ALL praise in EVERY THING THEY DO to Kim Jong Ill. Sure they claim to have free will, but then they worship and obey Kim Jong Ill. Does that seem like a reasonable existence to you? 
If you can't find your own reasons for living and finding satisfaction in things that YOU DO FOR YOURSELF then just admit that you are gullible and a follower and we can get this over with. 

You sound no different than the guy with giant fan made of feathers gently wafting the pharoah or something... Grow up already. 

Are you a WILLING servant? Southern slave masters would have LOVED you.

You don't accept this... fine.

Don't worry, I'm not.

You not accepting this fact (or fairy tale in your view 

) does nothing to prove it does or doesn't exist.

If you make a claim, you must support it with evidence. 
The burden of proof is on YOU as the believer. 

Otherwise the claim is not supported.

The proof or evidence for your god is INCONCLUSIVE, therefore your claim that a god exists does not stand.

On top of that, you must realize that IF YOUR GOD OF ISLAM DOES EXIST SO DOES THE GOD OF THE CHRISTIANS AND THE JEWS...as it is the SAME god. 

It's not an argument. You don't believe. I believe. My evidence is the Qur'an, you want to deny this evidence; that's on you. 

So just because its evidence does that mean that it supports the claim?
Is Harry Potter (which has more words, versions, and editions than the Quran) proof that Dumbledore and Platform 9 and 3/4 exists along with all the stuff inbetween the covers of those books?

Evidence must stand on its own to support a claim. Is the fact that my ice cream melted on a summer day meaning that a volcano is about to erupt?

Your use of the Quran as "evidence" is a non-sequitur (look it up). 

Additionally, I don't WANT to deny your evidence. I really WANT there to be a claim that you make that is supported. I like seeing people win by backing up their arguments...but as of yet, you have failed to do so because your book does not substantiate your claims. 

If this is the case then Batman lives in Gotham City right now and we have movies to prove it.

It is EXACTLY the same situation.

To the guy below, of course I would give myself credit for getting an A if I put the effort in (BECAUSE I CHOSE - hint: free will  - TO STUDY)..... but I still thank God.

Why study if you have to thank god?

Did god open the books?

Did god make you read?

Did god teach you how to read?

Did god make you do practice problems?

Did god help answer your questions?

Did god grade your test?

Did god make your scantron?

Did god drop you off for class?

Did god pick you up from class?

Did god sneak you the answers?

Did god GIVE you the answers at all?

Did god help you when you were frustrated and missed a question?

If god made you get a 92 instead of a 100, why did god make you miss a few questions?

Do you thank god if you get a C or a D? 

If god is responsible for your successes then god is responsible for your failures too on that same accord. 

Where was god in this process? 

Stop picking and choosing and grow up for the sake of humanity. This isn't the bronze age any more...and you know pretty darn well that if you lived like the Quran told you to, you would be in jail within the hour of hitting the streets. 

I'm not saying society is perfect but we're trying and we can't get any further with these ideologies from yesteryear.

I can't even believe you tried to TELL OTHER WOMEN HOW TO DRESS because YOU KNEW WHAT THEY WANTED FOR THEMSELVES.

The audacity of your CULT to impose such a mandate on other people.

Its no reason why people are so hostile to islam. 

While christianity has its fair and NUMEROUS problems, it has since been modernized and continues to evolve (oddly enough...

) due to secular pressure from society and a secular government that seeks equality to not impose religion...Islam for the most part wants to change that and in even more forceful ways. 

If you adopt this ideology I fear for what you think of those who lack the same basic rights of humanity you take for granted. 

 

[tkthafm]

More stream of consiousess opinions.....

as far as your questions go... do you even have an elementary school level understanding of Islam ? Obviously not if you are asking such dumb questions as "what did they do for 22 years"

 

Pick up a history book.

Do you have any reading comprehension ? I already addressed your questions numerous times.

I'll answer them anyway (again)

"Was the Quran written by men or not?"

Qur'an is the word of God.

"Do we have free will OR not?"

Of course we do.

and lol @ your arrogance in telling ME to look up a non-sequitur (you obviously have no idea what this means yourself if you are accusing me of it

) when you have been spewing out logical fallacy after logical fallacy. You type a lot but all of it is garbage. A whole lot of keystrokes for someone who is saying nothing.