PALESTINIAN GENOCIDE - ISRAELI-TERRORISM AWARENESS THREAD

[addy85]

Israel didnt provoke *. Hamas is a terrorist group they sure as hell dont need provocation. They murdered some kids and Israel just said enough

see this picture, where's the proof, are we supposed to just believe what they say? 

 okay.....

 

[rhythm808]

 
see this picture

Why do you support a terrorist organizations war that you dislike?

 

[addy85]

 
Why do you support a terrorist organizations war that you dislike?

don't quote me, it's pointless talking to you

 

[rhythm808]

 
don't quote me, it's pointless talking to you

Why can't you answer a simple question?

 

[createdestroy]

Is Israel still winning?

 

[addy85]

 
Why can't you answer a simple question?

I answered you but your ignorant and a complete waste of time.

 

[rhythm808]

 
I answered you but your ignorant and a complete waste of time.

You never answered it. All you said was that you are for peace. 

 

[useref15]

Is Israel still winning?

Nobody is winning

 

[addy85]

 
You never answered it. All you said was that you are for peace. 

And that means I support Hamas? I don't support Israel or Hamas, I support the people. See unlike you, I lived there, I have been through it, and I don't just talk nonsense. 

So what's your point, trying to pretend that you know who I am? or what I support? 

 

[rhythm808]

 
And that means I support Hamas? I don't support Israel or Hamas, I support the people. See unlike you, I lived there, I have been through it, and I don't just talk nonsense. 

So what's your point, trying to pretend that you know who I am? or what I support? 

Well I haven't seen you complain about one thing that Hamas has done.  

 

[createdestroy]

Is Israel still winning?

Nobody is winning

But the Palestinian population is definitely losing.

 

[oneilmatt]

And Hamas has no qualms with letting thousands of their people die so hipsters and foreigners of mideast descent can talk about how terrible Israel is.

 

[jab step]

 
see this picture, where's the proof, are we supposed to just believe what they say? 

 okay.....

That's clearly going to get this response, which is somewhat reasonable, "That's where the rockets are coming from. Why would they not attack the area where the rockets are coming from?" 

Reasonable to me. However, once again it is so tough to get information about this because of how biased everyone is, but I've read that Israel strategically provoked these new rocket attacks. Off the top of my head some of the reasons listed was the moving of the dome before any attacks even occurred, knowing about the dead kids for over a week, etc. Once again, who knows because pro-Israeli people can flip that and state their point of view. 

Someone needs to answer that long post by useref that I quoted on the previous page. It has probably every single pro-Israeli point of view in somewhat concise and organized post. I can answer most of what he stated from the Palestinian side, but I'm not as informed about this topic as some of you guys and wouldn't do it justice. @Me Love Nutella  said she would respond to it, but she wasn't able to yet. 

Some of the stuff I read on the Israeli side is reasonable. We are getting attacked by rockets, why the hell would we stand around. So what the Iron dome intercepts most of these rockets, no one just stands there twiddling their thumbs. At a point you have to go on the offensive. However, Israel is a superpower of a sort, especially compared to Palestine. They have to be reasonable. Show responsibility. Show humanity. All is fair in war, but this isn't a war. One side is clearly getting it all.

Stupid analogy, but since we're on Niketalk it somewhat fits. You watch any sporting event, basketball for example, and when a team is killing another team, they let up on the gas pedal. They don't try showing up the other team. You're up and the game is about to end, you don't take that last second shot. As elementary as it sounds, that's how I see this. But, once again, nothing is fair in war, but look at the Palestinian perspective on this. They're blocked in a tiny piece of land, with limited resources by another state. This state came into their land and took most of it (legally and illegally). Of course they are going to get angry. Of course they will blindly (arguably, wrongfully) support a government that seems like the only group that truly cares about them (this is also a topic of debate, does Hamas really care). But to them, these guys are freedom fighters, not terrorist. They are the only people fighting for them. 

Read this to see a more recent failure of peace talks. It hurts for me to know America gives money to Israel, which in turn results in these killings, but to a certain point I get why we are allies with them. I was glad to see America, specifically Kerry try to push for peace. However, the article shows how major egos on every side ultimately causes these talks to get shut down. 

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

All in all, I think what my post shows is that, taking sides, not acknowledging the mistakes of BOTH sides, is plain stupid. I hate looking at social media, etc regarding this topic because I just shake my head at how primitive we as humans are. We talk about how we are a superior species and how as adults we mature, grow, etc, but at the end of the day, people fight over the most elementary things, like fighting over a toy. Comments on social media (which I think are good because it brings forth this topic, i.e this thread) make me sad because it's turned into a Muslim vs. Jewish fight. Every Mohammad vs every Yaakov. People blindly supporting their "team" because of their background. The hate from both sides between colleagues etc just makes me upset. If only people could somehow look at it from the other perspective, then an agreement between the two sides can possibly formulate. 

Last part of my rant, this part may be unreasonable/controversial, but it kind of irks me that people have begun to get on their moral high ground act. @useref15  said this, and I thought it was interesting to think about, but a stupid way to deflect from the issues. A very stupid way to deflect, sorry bro (but still an interesting point). He stated why do people care so much about this fight, but aren't as outraged at what's happening in other areas like Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, Crimea (I'm adding places from what he said), etc. I have a very close Muslim friend, who is outraged at these events and outraged at me for not being too in tune with all this lol, so I asked him where's your outrage about all the atrocities around the world and I pointed to Syria. He said he definitely cares about Syria, but they're different situations because this one is a genocide. I didn't buy it much, and felt that the reason he really cares about this is because another group of people are killing his group of people. Whereas other atrocities around the world, don't involve his group. I can't blame him it's human nature to feel more empathy toward people with similar values or similar physical traits as you. I guess I wish this was an ideal world where none of that mattered, and all that mattered was people, not the distinctions. Now I'm on hopping on the moral high ground 

 

 

[htg designs]

 

[oneilmatt]

I really hate Bill Maher but that video is straight. Pretty much right on.

 

[leavemeglazzies]

Bill Maher is such a hypocrite joke. Takes enormous pride in being an atheist, but endorses a state that is built on religious segregation.

Then that Religiolous movie of his, or whatever it's called: Makes a movie about making fun of religion and the segment where he's supposed to make fun of Judaism is mostly him interviewing a Rabbi who is anti-zionist, a tiny minority. I mean, come on. Is this dude Bill Maher serious? 

 

 

[me love nutella]

This hits it on the head.

Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza—Debunked
Noura Erakat on July 25, 2014 - 11:28AM ET

Israel has killed almost 800 Palestinians in the past twenty-one days in the Gaza Strip alone; its onslaught continues. The UN estimates that more than 74 percent of those killed are civilians. That is to be expected in a population of 1.8 million where the number of Hamas members is approximately 15,000. Israel does not deny that it killed those Palestinians using modern aerial technology and precise weaponry courtesy of the world's only superpower. In fact, it does not even deny that they are civilians.

Israel's propaganda machine, however, insists that these Palestinians wanted to die ("culture of martyrdom"), staged their own death ("telegenically dead") or were the tragic victims of Hamas's use of civilian infrastructure for military purposes ("human shielding"). In all instances, the military power is blaming the victims for their own deaths, accusing them of devaluing life and attributing this disregard to cultural bankruptcy. In effect, Israel—along with uncritical mainstream media that unquestionably accept this discourse—dehumanizes Palestinians, deprives them even of their victimhood and legitimizes egregious human rights and legal violations.

This is not the first time. The gruesome images of decapitated children's bodies and stolen innocence on Gaza's shores are a dreadful repeat of Israel's assault on Gaza in November 2012 and winter 2008–09. Not only are the military tactics the same but so too are the public relations efforts and the faulty legal arguments that underpin the attacks. Mainstream media news anchors are inexplicably accepting these arguments as fact.

Below I address five of Israel's recurring talking points. I hope this proves useful to newsmakers.

1) Israel is exercising its right to self-defense.

As the occupying power of the Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian Territories more broadly, Israel has an obligation and a duty to protect the civilians under its occupation. It governs by military and law enforcement authority to maintain order, protect itself and protect the civilian population under its occupation. It cannot simultaneously occupy the territory, thus usurping the self-governing powers that would otherwise belong to Palestinians, and declare war upon them. These contradictory policies (occupying a land and then declaring war on it) make the Palestinian population doubly vulnerable.

The precarious and unstable conditions in the Gaza Strip from which Palestinians suffer are Israel's responsibility. Israel argues that it can invoke the right to self-defense under international law as defined in Article 51 of the UN Charter. The International Court of Justice, however, rejected this faulty legal interpretation in its 2004 Advisory Opinion. The ICJ explained that an armed attack that would trigger Article 51 must be attributable to a sovereign state, but the armed attacks by Palestinians emerge from within Israel's jurisdictional control. Israel does have the right to defend itself against rocket attacks, but it must do so in accordance with occupation law and not other laws of war. Occupation law ensures greater protection for the civilian population. The other laws of war balance military advantage and civilian suffering. The statement that "no country would tolerate rocket fire from a neighboring country" is therefore both a diversion and baseless.

Israel denies Palestinians the right to govern and protect themselves, while simultaneously invoking the right to self-defense. This is a conundrum and a violation of international law, one that Israel deliberately created to evade accountability.

2) Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005.

Israel argues that its occupation of the Gaza Strip ended with the unilateral withdrawal of its settler population in 2005. It then declared the Gaza Strip to be "hostile territory" and declared war against its population. Neither the argument nor the statement is tenable. Despite removing 8,000 settlers and the military infrastructure that protected their illegal presence, Israel maintained effective control of the Gaza Strip and thus remains the occupying power as defined by Article 47 of the Hague Regulations. To date, Israel maintains control of the territory's air space, territorial waters, electromagnetic sphere, population registry and the movement of all goods and people.

Israel argues that the withdrawal from Gaza demonstrates that ending the occupation will not bring peace. Some have gone so far as to say that Palestinians squandered their opportunity to build heaven in order to build a terrorist haven instead. These arguments aim to obfuscate Israel's responsibilities in the Gaza Strip, as well as the West Bank. As Prime Minister Netanyahu once explained, Israel must ensure that it does not "get another Gaza in Judea and Samaria…. I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."

Palestinians have yet to experience a day of self-governance. Israel immediately imposed a siege upon the Gaza Strip when Hamas won parliamentary elections in January 2006 and tightened it severely when Hamas routed Fatah in June 2007. The siege has created a "humanitarian catastrophe" in the Gaza Strip. Inhabitants will not be able to access clean water, electricity or tend to even the most urgent medical needs. The World Health Organization explains that the Gaza Strip will be unlivable by 2020. Not only did Israel not end its occupation, it has created a situation in which Palestinians cannot survive in the long-term.

3) This Israeli operation, among others, was caused by rocket fire from Gaza.

Israel claims that its current and past wars against the Palestinian population in Gaza have been in response to rocket fire. Empirical evidence from 2008, 2012 and 2014 refute that claim. First, according to Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the greatest reduction of rocket fire came through diplomatic rather than military means. This chart demonstrates the correlation between Israel's military attacks upon the Gaza Strip and Hamas militant activity. Hamas rocket fire increases in response to Israeli military attacks and decreases in direct correlation to them. Cease-fires have brought the greatest security to the region.

During the four months of the Egyptian-negotiated cease-fire in 2008, Palestinian militants reduced the number of rockets to zero or single digits from the Gaza Strip. Despite this relative security and calm, Israel broke the cease-fire to begin the notorious aerial and ground offensive that killed 1,400 Palestinians in twenty-two days. In November 2012, Israel's extrajudicial assassination of Ahmad Jabari, the chief of Hamas's military wing in Gaza, while he was reviewing terms for a diplomatic solution, again broke the cease-fire that precipitated the eight-day aerial offensive that killed 132 Palestinians.

Immediately preceding Israel's most recent operation, Hamas rocket and mortar attacks did not threaten Israel. Israel deliberately provoked this war with Hamas. Without producing a shred of evidence, it accused the political faction of kidnapping and murdering three settlers near Hebron. Four weeks and almost 700 lives later, Israel has yet to produce any evidence demonstrating Hamas's involvement. During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank, Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011. It's these Israeli provocations that precipitated the Hamas rocket fire to which Israel claims left it with no choice but a gruesome military operation.

4) Israel avoids civilian casualties, but Hamas aims to kill civilians.

Hamas has crude weapons technology that lacks any targeting capability. As such, Hamas rocket attacks ipso facto violate the principle of distinction because all of its attacks are indiscriminate. This is not contested. Israel, however, would not be any more tolerant of Hamas if it strictly targeted military objects, as we have witnessed of late. Israel considers Hamas and any form of its resistance, armed or otherwise, to be illegitimate.

In contrast, Israel has the eleventh most-powerful military in the world, certainly the strongest by far in the Middle East, and is a nuclear power that has not ratified the non-proliferation agreement and has precise weapons technology. With the use of drones, F-16s and an arsenal of modern weapon technology, Israel has the ability to target single individuals and therefore to avoid civilian casualties. But rather than avoid them, Israel has repeatedly targeted civilians as part of its military operations.

The Dahiya Doctrine is central to these operations and refers to Israel's indiscriminate attacks on Lebanon in 2006. Maj. Gen. Gadi Eizenkot said that this would be applied elsewhere:

What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. […] We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases.
Israel has kept true to this promise. The 2009 UN Fact-Finding Mission to the Gaza Conflict, better known as the Goldstone Mission, concluded "from a review of the facts on the ground that it witnessed for itself that what was prescribed as the best strategy [Dahiya Doctrine] appears to have been precisely what was put into practice."

According to the National Lawyers Guild, Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, Israel directly targeted civilians or recklessly caused civilian deaths during Operation Cast Lead. Far from avoiding the deaths of civilians, Israel effectively considers them legitimate targets.

5) Hamas hides its weapons in homes, mosques and schools and uses human shields.

This is arguably one of Israel's most insidious claims, because it blames Palestinians for their own death and deprives them of even their victimhood. Israel made the same argument in its war against Lebanon in 2006 and in its war against Palestinians in 2008. Notwithstanding its military cartoon sketches, Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons. The two cases where Hamas indeed stored weapons in UNRWA schools, the schools were empty. UNRWA discovered the rockets and publicly condemned the violation of its sanctity.

International human rights organizations that have investigated these claims have determined that they are not true. It attributed the high death toll in Israel's 2006 war on Lebanon to Israel's indiscriminate attacks. Human Rights Watch notes:

The evidence Human Rights Watch uncovered in its on-the-ground investigations refutes [Israel's] argument…we found strong evidence that Hezbollah stored most of its rockets in bunkers and weapon storage facilities located in uninhabited fields and valleys, that in the vast majority of cases Hezbollah fighters left populated civilian areas as soon as the fighting started, and that Hezbollah fired the vast majority of its rockets from pre-prepared positions outside villages.
In fact, only Israeli soldiers have systematically used Palestinians as human shields. Since Israel's incursion into the West Bank in 2002, it has used Palestinians as human shields by tying young Palestinians onto the hoods of their cars or forcing them to go into a home where a potential militant may be hiding.

Even assuming that Israel's claims were plausible, humanitarian law obligates Israel to avoid civilian casualties that "would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated." A belligerent force must verify whether civilian or civilian infrastructure qualifies as a military objective. In the case of doubt, "whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used."

In the over thee weeks of its military operation, Israel has demolished 3,175 homes, at least a dozen with families inside; destroyed five hospitals and six clinics; partially damaged sixty-four mosques and two churches; partially to completely destroyed eight government ministries; injured 4,620; and killed over 700 Palestinians. At plain sight, these numbers indicate Israel's egregious violations of humanitarian law, ones that amount to war crimes.

Beyond the body count and reference to law, which is a product of power, the question to ask is, What is Israel's end goal? What if Hamas and Islamic Jihad dug tunnels beneath the entirety of the Gaza Strip—they clearly did not, but let us assume they did for the sake of argument. According to Israel's logic, all of Gaza's 1.8 million Palestinians are therefore human shields for being born Palestinian in Gaza. The solution is to destroy the 360-kilometer square strip of land and to expect a watching world to accept this catastrophic loss as incidental. This is possible only by framing and accepting the dehumanization of Palestinian life. Despite the absurdity of this proposal, it is precisely what Israeli society is urging its military leadership to do. Israel cannot bomb Palestinians into submission, and it certainly cannot bomb them into peace.

http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

 

[clarkchaz1988]

 
Bill Maher is such a hypocrite joke. Takes enormous pride in being an atheist, but endorses a state that is built on religious segregation.

Then that Religiolous movie of his, or whatever it's called: Makes a movie about making fun of religion and the segment where he's supposed to make fun of Judaism is mostly him interviewing a Rabbi who is anti-zionist, a tiny minority. I mean, come on. Is this dude Bill Maher serious? 

 

Yeah I got admit Bill Maher has disappointed me with his stance on this. He seems like he's so anti establishment but he's letting the media dictate his views on this situation. Bill is really open minded but when it comes to muslims he opposes them in anything.

 

[oneilmatt]

Not really. Israel has a right and imo a duty to strike back against terrorism. Hamas, if they had the power Israel has, would have flattened the place by now. Dont know why Hamas is held to a different standard.

 

[paliplaya2010]

 





Hamas is peaceful   


Their first rocket attacks on Israel since 2012? --- Either you are lying, or you are just wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2013

Your ignorant. Israel has the exact same propaganda where they say shoot all Arabs. It's well documented. Hamas does not equal other organizations that shoot rockets. Obviously you don't have reading comprehension skills because that's not what I said. Yes that was hamas's first rocket since 2012... Do your really expect the demecratically elected hamas not to fight and protect their people after being attacked even if their attacks do nothing.

 

[jab step]

Not really. Israel has a right and imo a duty to strike back against terrorism. Hamas, if they had the power Israel has, would have flattened the place by now. Dont know why Hamas is held to a different standard.

This is the sort of logic that leads to no progress. Hypothetically, if Hamas had the ability, they would wipe us out. Well they don't have the weapons, that's not what's happening, and we don't live in a hypothetical world. Why stoop down to the same level (hypothetically) of a group you call terrorists? 

Also, Hamas came into power not too long ago. What's with all this Hamas blame and deflection? Not like there were signs of peace beforehand? 

 

[createdestroy]

Not really. Israel has a right and imo a duty to strike back against terrorism. Hamas, if they had the power Israel has, would have flattened the place by now. Dont know why Hamas is held to a different standard.

Why stoop down to the same level (hypothetically) of a group you call terrorists?

Israel has the power to almost completely decimate the Palestinian population...yet they don't. That's the opposite of stooping to the same level.

 

[me love nutella]

Israel has the power to almost completely decimate the Palestinian population...yet they don't. That's the opposite of stooping to the same level.

You obviously do not know politics or military strategy and policy. You think they would decimate the population outright so they can be easily charged with war crimes and ethnic cleansing? Or do it as policies using pretexts and propaganda justifications so they can somehow get away with it? That's what western powers do when it comes to bombing others and killing civilians.

As I stated, worst violators of nature and human rights never go to jail, they hold the keys to it.

 

[oneilmatt]

Lmao tell me about military strategy Mr West Point

Unlike Hamas, Israel's doctrines dont include murdering entire religions of people. They wouldnt do that. Theyre already getting criticized out the *. If they were so evil Gaza would be ashes right now.

 

[rhythm808]

Your ignorant. Israel has the exact same propaganda where they say shoot all Arabs. It's well documented. Hamas does not equal other organizations that shoot rockets. Obviously you don't have reading comprehension skills because that's not what I said. Yes that was hamas's first rocket since 2012... Do your really expect the demecratically elected hamas not to fight and protect their people after being attacked even if their attacks do nothing.

Post up then.  It wasn't their first rockets since 2012....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2013