Official Umar Johnson Thread

[IATT]

Politicians literal job is to lie & try & keep their constituents as docile as possible, it blows my mind that people so blindly follow them

Not their “literal job”

But it is what some have resorted to instead of doing their “literal job” to retain power

As they work for you, I’d suggest learning what their “literal job” actually is and not accept what you suggest it to be

 

[trynafeelmink]

Look man i've done enough of this in the politics thread, If you believe the government is working for you then enjoy bro

 

[TSCQ]

Look man i've done enough of this in the politics thread, If you believe the government is working for you then enjoy bro

Did you cash In your stimmy checks?

 

[IATT]

Look man i've done enough of this in the politics thread, If you believe the government is working for you then enjoy bro

I didn’t say what I believe

However I know their “literal job” is not what you stated

When people accept that to be the case, zero clue why anything different should be expected

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Man take that back to the political thread please.

 

[trynafeelmink]

Since Orishas were brought up, kinda crazy how much of Yoruba influence spread to a lot of afro/latin cultures & how it was demonized or call "voo-doo". Growing up I remember how people use to treated santeria as if it were tied to satan/hell concept, when in reality it was just another form of spirituality that didn't fir Americas narrative for Christianity

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yea, it usually works itself out if you approach it from a logical standpoint. Kids are irrational. Kids are highly influenced by their peers. Not sure why when it comes to THIS topic people PRETEND those things aren't true.

You did the right thing though.

But more and more stories are coming out about folks regretting the decision their PARENTS let them make when they were in that phase of their lives. There are also testimonials on how flimsy the gender reaffirming doctors' tests/assessments are before the snip / hormones takes place.

It's all silly though.

I hate that it is political because it forces those that would be able to see it logically to go with what their team says is the right stance to take.

Logical thought doesn't support your argument as much as you think.

-It has been shown that the overwhelming majority of adults that transition, don't regret the decision. Detransitioning is relatively rare.

The question is that will this be true of adults that transitioned while minors, will feel the same. And with more people transitioning, are current generations fundamentally different that previous ones.

Let us say they are the same. That we gets the same level of regret to non-regret. If there being more people transitioning, with the same percentages applied, then of course you will get more people detransitioning and saying they regret it. That is how math works. But it says nothing about it on aggregate transitioning minors is works out to be a net positive medical intervention.

For it not to be, then the majority of people that transition as minors have to regret it come adult hood. That is a big mathematical hill to climb.

Maybe it does happened. But hearing about more regretful people, that by itself, means little without further context and comparison.

Math is based on logic. So the math has to be on the side of people like Umar and those that think allowing kids to medically transition is some sort of child abuse or parental failure.

I have a hard time believing the math will it up that way.

-Also, the thought that most parents are just little little kids decide their gender, and going along with it without giving it serious thought, is nonsense.

Hormone therapies and gender surgeries are approved and performed by medical professionals.

Often times you have to get approval from a treating mental health professional. My girlfriend is a child therapist. He treats some trans kids. She lets the parents know that she won't even sign off on anything above social transition without like 18 months of continuous treatment and evaluation. Most of her colleagues have similar policies. Most parents are cool with it.

People letting what they see on social media to close their hearts and minds to parents trying to do right by their kids, and kids trying g to feel more comfortable living in this world.

This is why I reject **** coming from Umar. It is just articulate disrespect. With tons of holes in his arguments.

-Lastly, I think people can ha e fair and logical disagreements and uneasy feelings about minor transitioning. Especially before puberty. People have status quo bias, it is a new societal issue, and to be honest I think the some online trans activist don't do their best advocating for trans adults and kids. I understand that. Even if I disagree with some of their stances and conclusions.

But if someone is against a child socially transitioning, especially in their teenage years. I think they are mostly just being an *******.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Yea I am strictly speaking on medically starting the transition process for children before puberty. (Like the example I quoted above)

I don't know why anyone would do that to their child.

"But if someone is against a child socially transitioning, especially in their teenage years. I think they are mostly just being an *******."

Like htg designs showed, sometimes it will probably work itself out and the child will realize they were just in a phase.

I could see you calling someone an ******* that completely rejects it but I am not sure it's fair to call someone that if they simply don't entertain it seriously. But maybe you will, I don't know.

Either way, it is a life long decision that I feel should be made once a person is an actual adult.

The question is that will this be true of adults that transitioned while minors, will feel the same. And with more people transitioning, are current generations fundamentally different that previous ones.



-Lastly, I think people can ha e fair and logical disagreements and uneasy feelings about minor transitioning. Especially before puberty. People have status quo bias, it is a new societal issue, and to be honest I think the some online trans activist don't do their best advocating for trans adults and kids. I understand that. Even if I disagree with some of their stances and conclusions.

But if someone is against a child socially transitioning, especially in their teenage years. I think they are mostly just being an *******.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yea I am strictly speaking on medically starting the transition process for children before puberty. (Like the example I quoted above)

I don't know why anyone would do that to their child.

They do it because puberty locks in some sex specific body differences.

If a trans kid is suffering mental anguish from believing they were born in the wrong body. Going through puberty heightens this.

So blocking puberty has some cosmetic and mental health benefits for a trans person

I won't say there is a consensus but I have heard quite a few trans people speak of this.

So thinking logically, if someone assumes that there with be the same high satisfaction rate among people that transition as kids, then transition before puberty makes sense.

Now someone can argue that going through puberty might have the opposite affect, and it will cause the minor to be more accepting of their body. I think it is a very strong argument on the surface, but ok.

If someone argued that puberty blocks were approved and intended for rare cases and short term use, and using them longer term might have downstream negative side affects for the person, that outweighs potential benefits even for people that otherwise would not regret transitioning. Ok, that is a reasonable issue to raise. I would think more research into the issue would be the best course of action here.

But I don't think the calculation that people open to transitioning kids before puberty is strictly illogical.

"But if someone is against a child socially transitioning, especially in their teenage years. I think they are mostly just being an *******."

Like htg designs showed, sometimes just letting the situation play out it will probably work itself out and the child will realize they were just in a momentarily phase.

His example is not representative though

Most kids transition at all ages. Most well above 5.

Seems bad and lazy to use such and example and apply that framework to all minors. Especially those under care of mental health and medical professionals.

Seems like just an easy way to dismiss all trans kids feelings as just the whims of young child

I could see you calling someone an ******* that completely rejects it but I am not sure it's fair to call someone that if they simply don't entertain it seriously. But maybe you will, I don't know.

Nah, I think they are an *******.

It doesn't hurt them, it doesn't hurt the child, if anything seems like it would help the child, there is no concern about long term health affects.

They have a problem with it, then it is probably because they just don't like trans kids and/or people.

So yeah, that is a-hole behavior IMO.

People like to have negative opinions and think it is unfair for someone to have negative opinions about their negative opinions.

But that is life.

Either way, it is a life long decision that I feel should be made once a person is an actual adult.

Ok, you can feel that way.

But feeling that way doesn't by itself means you are basing that decision strictly on logical thinking.

And that people that disagree are simply being irrational.

 

[tomdiginson]

They do it because puberty locks in some sex specific body differences.

If a trans kid is suffering mental anguish from believing they were born in the wrong body. Going through puberty heightens this.

So blocking puberty has some cosmetic and mental health benefits for a trans person

Based on what you're saying, don't you think it would be appropriate to focus on the mental aspect of the issue? If a child were to express a belief that they are an elf, would we resort to shaving their ears to accommodate them? What about those who identify as animals or even robots?

Additionally, how is it possible for a 5-year-old to have knowledge about puberty and its effects on their body to the extent that they would feel the need to quickly transition before they reach a certain age? This is adults making drastic descinions based on childrens whimsical thoughts.

? This is still a relatively new situation. How can we be sure that more people won't eventually come forward, expressing regret for their previous actions? Do you believe that there could be more people who regret their decision, but their concerns are not adequately represented because it goes against the agenda they are promoting?


"According to an online survey of detransitioners conducted by Dr. Lisa Littman last year, 40% said their gender dysphoria was caused by a mental-health condition and 62% felt medical professionals did not investigate whether trauma was a factor in their transition decisions.

“My dysphoria collided with my general depression issues and body image issues,” Helena recalled. “I just came to the conclusion that I was born in the wrong body and that all my problems in life would be solved if I transitioned.”"

‘I literally lost organs:’ Why detransitioned teens regret changing genders

A look at the alarming rise of teens who are changing genders and then “detransitioning” back.

nypost.com

 

[RustyShackleford]

Based on what you're saying, don't you think it would be appropriate to focus on the mental aspect of the issue? If a child were to express a belief that they are an elf, would we resort to shaving their ears to accommodate them? What about those who identify as animals or even robots?

There is a focus on mental health issues. A lot trans adults and kids see mental health professionals. Access forms of medical intervention often require it. Famb like I said, my girlfriend is a therapist. She treats trans kids. She used to treat trans adults. She used to be a social work and had trans clients.

Secondly, I think deriding gender dysphoria as being the same as someone thinking there are an elf is a bad faith way to discuss a serious issue.

It is overly dismissive to the point of being disrespectful.

Seems like you feel the focus should be on trying to talk people out of being trans. And that is the outcome mental health professionals should focus.

I disagree. I don't have an issue with transgender people exist. If transitioning improves someone's quality of life, then good for them.

Additionally, how is it possible for a 5-year-old to have knowledge about puberty and its effects on their body to the extent that they would feel the need to quickly transition before they reach a certain age? This is adults making drastic descinions based on childrens whimsical thoughts.

Famb, most kids don't transition at 5

It is bad faith to act like a 5 year is representative of the population of trans kids.

I would not support transitioning a kid at 5.

This is still a relatively new situation. How can we be sure that more people won't eventually come forward, expressing regret for their previous actions? This is still a relatively new situation. How can we be sure that more people won't eventually come forward, expressing regret for their previous actions? Do you believe that there could be more people who regret their decision, but their concerns are not adequately represented because it goes against the agenda they are promoting?

I am certain more people will regret it.

People in the past have regretted it.

My point is that more people regretting it doesn't say much without more context. The amount of people transitioning has been on a sharp increase over the past few years. So you will obviously get more people being regretful and destransitioning. Just like you will get the opposite. A lot more people will not regret it, and e happy about the decision.

What matter are the percentages and how they shift or don't shift. I think that the regret rate is from previous research is like in the low si gle digits of people that regret it.

Most adults that transition don't regret it. So things have to change a lot going forward. Maybe they do, but it is hard for me to imagine it would.

So then if they isn't some massive shift toward regret, people like you would be arguing against a medical intervention that shows positive results majority of the tim.

Like I said to DC, the math hill is a tough one to climb for people against minors transitioning.

"According to an online survey of detransitioners conducted by Dr. Lisa Littman last year, 40% said their gender dysphoria was caused by a mental-health condition and 62% felt medical professionals did not investigate whether trauma was a factor in their transition decisions.

“My dysphoria collided with my general depression issues and body image issues,” Helena recalled. “I just came to the conclusion that I was born in the wrong body and that all my problems in life would be solved if I transitioned.”"

‘I literally lost organs:’ Why detransitioned teens regret changing genders

A look at the alarming rise of teens who are changing genders and then “detransitioning” back.

nypost.com

I don't think the stats are saying what you think it says.

It is not a representative survey of the entire trans population. It is a survey of detransitioners. Which makes up a small share of the general population.

It like like seeing 1000 people eat at a restaurant. Then you survey 20 of them said they regret eating there. With 60 percent the service was bad.

It is not 60% of the people who eat at the restaurant saying the service was bad. It is actually 1.2% saying it is. The survey results only tell us info about a small share of trans individuals. Not enough to make judgement about the overall community.

So it would be denying something that has a positive benefit to the median case, and the majority of the population, because of the regrets of a marginal cases.

That doesn't seem logical to me.

-Sorry, but I think a lot of folk feel that someone needs to be a far left social progressive or captured by some cutting edge gender theory. Basic math tells me these arguments are not very compelling.

My opinion might change if time shows sizeable enough shifts. But given the info right now. Nah.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

RustyShackleford You spoke on not socially allowing your child to transition (not medically) isn't right.

At what age are we speaking in here? Take the 5 year old example for instance. If a parent doesn't allow that child to SOCIALLY transition after they have claimed they were in the wrong body would you consider that a-hole-ish as well?

 

[RustyShackleford]

RustyShackleford You spoke on not socially allowing your child to transition (not medically) isn't right.

At what age are we speaking in here? Take the 5 year old example for instance. If a parent doesn't allow that child to SOCIALLY transition after they have claimed they were in the wrong body would you consider that a-hole-ish as well?

Answer this first for me.

Why 5 year old?

Why not 15, 16, or 17. Or even 12 or 13?

 

[tomdiginson]

There is a focus on mental health issues. A lot trans adults and kids see mental health professionals. Access forms of medical intervention often require it. Famb like I said, my girlfriend is a therapist. She treats trans kids. She used to treat trans adults. She used to be a social work and had trans clients.

Secondly, I think deriding gender dysphoria as being the same as someone thinking there are an elf is a bad faith way to discuss a serious issue.

It is overly dismissive to the point of being disrespectful.

Seems like you feel the focus should be on trying to talk people out of being trans. And that is the outcome mental health professionals should focus.

I disagree. I don't have an issue with transgender people exist. If transitioning improves someone's quality of life, then good for them.



Famb, most kids don't transition at 5

It is bad faith to act like a 5 year is representative of the population of trans kids.

I would not support transitioning a kid at 5.


I am certain more people will regret it.

People in the past have regretted it.

My point is that more people regretting it doesn't say much without more context. The amount of people transitioning has been on a sharp increase over the past few years. So you will obviously get more people being regretful and destransitioning. Just like you will get the opposite. A lot more people will not regret it, and e happy about the decision.

What matter are the percentages and how they shift or don't shift. I think that the regret rate is from previous research is like in the low si gle digits of people that regret it.

Most adults that transition don't regret it. So things have to change a lot going forward. Maybe they do, but it is hard for me to imagine it would.

So then if they isn't some massive shift toward regret, people like you would be arguing against a medical intervention that shows positive results majority of the tim.

Like I said to DC, the math hill is a tough one to climb for people against minors transitioning.




I don't think the stats are saying what you think it says.

It is not a representative survey of the entire trans population. It is a survey of detransitioners. Which makes up a small share of the general population.

It like like seeing 1000 people eat at a restaurant. Then you survey 20 of them said they regret eating there. With 60 percent the service was bad.

It is not 60% of the people who eat at the restaurant saying the service was bad. It is actually 1.2% saying it is. The survey results only tell us info about a small share of trans individuals. Not enough to make judgement about the overall community.

So it would be denying something that has a positive benefit to the median case, and the majority of the population, because of the regrets of a marginal cases.

That doesn't seem logical to me.

-Sorry, but I think a lot of folk feel that someone needs to be a far left social progressive or captured by some cutting edge gender theory. Basic math tells me these arguments are not very compelling.

My opinion might change if time shows sizeable enough shifts. But given the info right now. Nah

It's important to remember that children often say things that should not be immediately indulged by adults or parents. Instead, when children reach a certain age where they are cognizant, they should be allowed to make their own decisions. I used the age 5 as an examlpe, but at the rate we're going, people will start saying their newborn is telling them that they were born in the wrongbody. I believe some Parents are doing this for social praise.

I am well aware that the statistics I posted doesn't represent the entire population Rusty. I shared them to highlight the fact that there are kids who regret making drastic decisions at a young age, and that sometimes the adults and medical professionals involved in the decision-making process fail them by indulging them in those radical choices.

I also highlight it because the detransitioning staticis are intentionally skewed because it goes against their agenda.

I share the following belong to highlight some of the different factors that cause the data to be skewed.

"Unfortunately, some people who discuss their detransition on social media are met with suspicion, blame, mockery, harassment, or even threats from within the LGBTQ communities in which they previously found refuge. Some trans-rights advocates have likened detransitioners to the ex-gay movement or described them as anti-trans grifters. "

"Detransitioners who face social rejection, coupled with shame and isolation, may come to view anti-trans activists as their only allies—even when those activists portray them negatively, as damaged goods rather than as human beings who have survived medical trauma. Meanwhile, clinicians who receive threats of violence for assisting trans youth are vulnerable to developing myopic positions and overly optimistic clinical practices that ignore detransitioners’ accounts."

"Opponents of gender care for youth aren’t just capitalizing on stories like Beck’s; The existing research has major gaps. Much of the recent evidence is based on follow-ups conducted about two years or less after a patient initiates a transition. But the few studies that have examined detransition suggest that the average time to detransition can be about four to eight and a half years. And detransitioners may avoid returning to the same clinician who helped them start the process; some discontinue medical care altogether. So any studies that rely exclusively on understanding detransition from patient medical records will underestimate this outcome."

Take Detransitioners Seriously - The Atlantic

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Answer this first for me.

Why 5 year old?

Why not 15, 16, or 17. Or even 12 or 13?

As a teenager and parent has little to no control over what the child does socially. Once you hit, you are acting how you want, dressing how you want, hanging around who you want.

So As a small child (5-10) where a parent controls just about everything, are you still suggesting the parent should socially allow them to transition? If they don't are they an a-hole?

What do you think you would do?

So I am asking about an age where the parent has full creative control .

 

[RustyShackleford]

It's important to remember that children often say things that should not be immediately indulged by adults or parents.

I never argued for this

Most parents don't do this

It is just seems convenient for people to can like this is what is happening

Most parents probably take their kids to a therapist.

Instead, when children reach a certain age where they are cognizant, they should be allowed to make their own decisions. I used the age 5 as an examlpe, but at the rate we're going, people will start saying their newborn is telling them that they were born in the wrongbody.

This is hyperbole, plain and simple

Parents are not rushing to doctors to get hormone treatments when they hear and off handed comment from their 5 year old.

And I see no reason to believe that most parents will start doing this with children that can't even talk yet.

If anyone is doing that, that is clearly and issue. But again, transitioning 5 year old are not the norm in any way. And I am pointing that out.

I am well aware that the statistics I posted doesn't represent the entire population Rusty. I shared them to highlight the fact that there are kids who regret making drastic decisions at a young age, and that sometimes the adults and medical professionals involved in the decision-making process fail them by indulging them in those radical choices.

I already conceded that detransitioners existed. In the comment you quoted.

I am highlighting that your mentioning them doesn't mean that their actions or failures in treatment they supposedly got are representative of the general population.

I know they exist.

I also highlight it because the detransitioning staticis are intentionally skewed because it goes against their agenda.

Those agenda?

Because it seems to me that research was done to gain some insight, and one year was chosen because it makes data collection easier. And in turn cheaper. And with researchers being under pressure to publish, that makes sense.

But please tell me, who is pulling the strings?

"Unfortunately, some people who discuss their detransition on social media are met with suspicion, blame, mockery, harassment, or even threats from within the LGBTQ communities in which they previously found refuge. Some trans-rights advocates have likened detransitioners to the ex-gay movement or described them as anti-trans grifters. "

"Opponents of gender care for youth aren’t just capitalizing on stories like Beck’s; they are also weaponizing scientific uncertainty. The existing research has major gaps. Much of the recent evidence is based on follow-ups conducted about two years or less after a patient initiates a transition. But the few studies that have examined detransition suggest that the average time to detransition can be about four to eight and a half years. And detransitioners may avoid returning to the same clinician who helped them start the process; some discontinue medical care altogether. So any studies that rely exclusively on understanding detransition from patient medical records will underestimate this outcome."

Take Detransitioners Seriously - The Atlantic

Cool, then they should do more research with longer timelines. All for it.

The number is way closer to 0 that 50% plus one. Increase observation time and see what happens.

I am skeptical it gets over 50% threshold

 

[RustyShackleford]

As a teenager and parent has little to no control over what the child does socially. Once you hit, you are acting how you want, dressing how you want, hanging around who you want.

So As a small child (5-10) where a parent controls just about everything, are you still suggesting the parent should socially allow them to transition? If they don't are they an a-hole?

What do you think you would do?

So I am asking about an age where the parent has full creative control .

I would make note of it.

5 year olds don't really grasp the world and know themselves that well if at all.

See what my child does and says as time goes on. Probably many years.

If it becomes a more serious issue. Take them to a therapist. See what the therapist says.

I would think I probably do what most parents that want the best for their child would do.

And if your child has diagnosed gender dysphoria, and the therapist says that socially transitioning would be beneficial to your child. Then yes, I think it is an a-hole move to deny them that.

 

[gry60]

I think it's very possible for a person to subscribe to a particular belief system without agreeing with everything (100%) of what that belief system promotes.

I think it's possible but I don't know.

Umar has adopted a religion in which gender fluidity is a defining aspect of some orishas. He doesn't just disagree with the aspect; he thinks it's fundamentally wrong, which would be considered blasphemous to other members of this belief system. The Christian god is violent, but when have you ever seen the most peaceful Christian disagree with it? That's where the hypocrisy lies.

RustyShackleford I see you had time today. From the sound of what has been said here, you'd think that people who transition are getting it done in back alleys, BBL-style.

 

[trynafeelmink]

We in a world where black men who transitioned into into women are now disrespecting and challenging natural born women for demanding separation be clear .

This is what the black community is dealing with in 2023, the progress is outstanding

And dudes are out here comparing spiritual figures to children getting sex changes.

Religion has lost it's grip on America & instead of distancing themselves from the controlling nature of religion people have just filled their need to believe/ create deity's with celebrities, athletes & politicians. amzing to watch actually.

 

[Raji Lowenthal]

Umar has adopted a religion in which gender fluidity is a defining aspect of some orishas. He doesn't just disagree with the aspect; he thinks it's fundamentally wrong, which would be considered blasphemous to other members of this belief system. The Christian god is violent, but when have you ever seen the most peaceful Christian disagree with it? That's where the hypocrisy lies.

RustyShackleford I see you had time today. From the sound of what has been said here, you'd think that people who transition are getting it done in back alleys, BBL-style.

Maybe the Orishas transitioned as adults and not children, in which case, Umar would be in the clear.

 

[paulwest1985]

Let me get this thread back on the tracks.



I agree with Umar (and Jess Hilarious) on this topic. (And if the mods ban me for saying this, than so be it ) Its time for the black community to distance itself from the LGBT community. The agenda is in full effect now: Emasculate the black men and masculinize the black female. And now Trans "women" are trying to claim that biological women don't own "womenhood".

 

[RustyShackleford]

Let me get this thread back on track......You see "da gay agenda"

 

[paulwest1985]

I mean, this thread is about Umar Johnson

 

[RustyShackleford]

I mean, this thread is about Umar Johnson

I am aware

But it isn't a fan thread for him

I am free to have a negative opinion about any aspect of what Umar says

That is how a discussion forum works

 

[TSCQ]

Look man i've done enough of this in the politics thread, If you believe the government is working for you then enjoy bro

Did you cash In your stimmy checks?

Too scared to answer my question?