RZA
Interviewed by Andre Torres
ANDRE TORRES: I wanted to start back at the beginning, if you could talk a little bit about com- ing out of Staten Island at the time, ’92-’93 with a sound that was definitely completely different than what was dominating hip-hop at the time with this sort of Cali-dominated slickness. You came with a unique New York grittiness that sort of set the stage for the future of New York hip-hop. It really kind of put it back on the map. And then everything that followed was in that same vein, I think. If you could sort of give me some insight, how you think that all happened.
RZA: I think for me, being the producer behind WU-TANG – what it was, you know, living in New York all these years, I’m a guy that went from Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens – every borough I would go battle emcees and DJs. But living on Staten Island, it was kind of like being secluded and gave us a chance to nurture our own slang our own personality. And I was like the kid out there that was one of the best DJs out there. Some con- sidered me the best emcee on Staten Island, be- tween me and CAPPADONA always battling. But I think as a producer, what I did was I made music for emcees, for hip-hop. It wasn’t like okay, I love the LOW END THEORY album.But that’s Jazz, in its own way. RAEKWON was big on NWA and DRE’s first album. He used to always pop that **** in his car. But to me, that didn’t feel like I felt. So I made music that’s more like – it was kind of aggressive, angry, and it was for you to go out and rip the mic, kick the door, burn the building down. It was real just aggressive music, I think. And I think being on Staten Island, it kept it secluded, it kept it nurtured. Because I was doing that since ’87, making tapes and demos that were circling through the neighborhood. But it wasn’t until ’91 when they made a machine called the epS-16+ that I was able to take all this creativ- ity that I was doing before tracks and stuff, put it on one machine, add all these sounds to it, and make it go crazy.
AT: So, yeah it added a little bit more musicality, I think.
RZA: Yeah, I think so. And I mean, there was a lot of good music. Look at peTe RoCk and “Remi- nisce” with the horns, and – so they was doing it. I just think the keyboard technique changed it. And then also, my reach for what I wanted to sample. I mean, to me, I discovered that any noise is music, because it’s an emotion. That’s what I meant, like WU-TANG CLAN be attacking your emotions. I used to always say that to him. Like yo, my set is for your emotions, you know what I mean? Tearz – that song make you ******* – you know, you feel it as if it was a soul song, not a rap song. Can it be – I mean, you feel the sadness and the beauty of us coming out of the hood when you hear those songs.
And that’s how I wanted it to be, you know what I mean? And those same little chords – you know, I’m on ALICIA KEYS first album, A minor – those are the chords I was using. I didn’t know it was A ******* minor at the time, you know what I mean? Because I wasn’t a piano player. I learned that years later. But the A minor to the D, or the A to the C to the e – that progression is hip-hop. And the funny thing is when DRE came back with Still Dre, basically same chords, just inverted them. Same thing – the same thing I’ve been playing for years, but inverted. So it’s crazy.
AT: So I wanted to move – moving sort of past just the musical aspect. Obviously, WU-TANG was able to sort of transcend hip-hop in a way that I think prob- ably no others had at the time, possibly even since in the way that you were going beyond music and really kind of coming up with a sort of cultural phenomenon in the way that you were influencing the way we talked, the way we dressed. I mean, it was kind of like the first hip-hop brand, in a sense. What do you think it was about the music, as well as this whole sort of agenda that you had, that was able to attract so many different groups of people, from hip-hop kids to skate kids to college kids and white kids? I mean, it was sort of across the board. Everybody really kind of fell in line.
RZA: I think it got a lot to do with the – music is of course the key and the foundation of it, but also, look at the personalities of the crew. You’ve got nine guys with nine different ways of looking at things. You nah mean? Nine personalities. And I always say this about the WU-TANG to other people. These wasn’t no nine suckers. Any one of them was going to make it on their own, in their own world, because each one was like a boss to their own little crew. even though me and gHoST was roommates – it’s like u-god, he had his crew. RAEKWON, they had their crew – they had – you know what I mean about crew? Like crews in the streets. Not just rapping crews, but little shorties underneath them. So when you have that many elite personali- ties, that’s going to attract many different kinds of people. Also, growing up on Staten Island, for the years we spent on Staten Island – Staten Island, to me, is one of the first multicultural places in New York. There was a lot of riots going on in high school. You got to New York High and it was only like 90 blacks to 1200 whites. And the blacks are get- ting into ights, getting jumped and sent home, and **** – but we had that, but it was a mix of cultures. You got the Italian culture with the Ma ia mental- ity, young kids like that. You got hip-hop, which was us in the ghetto. You got the puerto Ricans, at the handball court all the time with them. All these different cultures, and we always come to the block parties, always see each other, your girls. I think that’s what made – when it came to the world, it was a Staten Island thing. We brought this blend of culture. Like me, I hung out with white boys all through ******* junior high, high school. I just saw one of my white homies – he’s an Italian dude named Jimmy. I also hang with a Spanish dude, John – my first DJ. Jimmy – you know, we would go to the ******* Silver Lake and get kegs of beer, nah mean? people were doing early skateboard stuff or stuff like that, that was happening. And so I think in our music, in our style, it re lected. And then when it came to the slang, it’s like Staten Island slang was a slang that was kept away from New York. So people in New York was talking similar to each other, be- cause they was all cross-pollinating. But Staten Is- land’s just sitting back.
It’s like – the same thing I think with Yon- kers and Long Island. When Long Island came on the scene with EPMD, RAKIM and them – there were a few other ones from out there. PUBLIC ENEMY, FLAVOR FLAV and them too. But their slang attracted a lot of New York- ers, because they had an isolated slang. When GRAND PUBA – JADAKISS and them ‘til this day – and the LOX. They brought that out-of- New York slang to New York. So it’s New York on the weekends, HEAVY D and them – same thing. So WU-TANG was the same thing, but even more concentrated. everybody on Staten Island moved to Staten Island from somewhere. So you got the Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, all on this little rock now with all these cultures mi- grating up. And I think when it came out to the world, they felt it, they soared. And I always say that any member of the WU-TANG – if you can’t relate to one, you could relate to another.
AT: There was an interesting quote – you know FRANk ZAppA. He said something about, art is making something out of nothing and selling it. That sort of resonated with me, especially in light of this sort of hip-hop hustle. I was curious to know, what role, or how big a part of your life has art played in that respect?
RZA: FRANK ZAPPA hit it right on the nose. He’s right, you know. Art is taking – art is a creation. So when you create something, actually, you start from nothing. So when you create something, making something out of nothing, it seems almost mathe- matically impossible, you can’t find an equation for this. That’s why they can’t find god. You know what I mean? But that’s what art is. It is creating some- thing out of nothing. And selling it – it’s up to you to sell it or not. But somebody put a value on it. I feel the same about my beats and stuff like that. I feel the same about my sound. It was more like – like I say, hip-hop has been here. And they may take this as ego, but to me, nobody was making just some- thing that was only foundated in hip-hop. There’s no other way – you couldn’t call it nothing else. If you get that first 36 CHAMBERS album, you can’t put that as another category. It has to stay in hip-hop. It can’t got to the R&B cat- egory, the rock category. They try to say, oh, it’s punk Rock, they try to say everything about it, because it’s hip-hop is what it is. And hip-hop is that ocean to me. hip-hop is the ocean of music, where all other music has its distinction, hip- hop is that collage of everything put together, put a song from nothing, actually, and bringing it all together. And this is why– like, take the graved****z, another good example, why do I take horror sound effects or just aahhhhh (RZA sings)– Russian choirs and ****. How is that Rus- sian choir hip-hop? Because I see the hip-hop in it. I could take that which you would consider nothing and make something out of it. So I agree with FRANK ZAPPA. And I got a FRANK ZAPPA sample that he never would know I got. I know he’s not here any- more, I shouldn’t say this. But I got – even – I have all of FRANK ZAPPA’s stuff.
AT: Can you tell us what it is?
RZA: Yeah. I’ll share it with you guys. Don’t tell nobody.
AT: Yeah, yeah, I’m interested.
RZA: COLD WORLD. Yeah. You’d never know that’s FRANK ZAPPA.
AT: Now I gotta go back and check.
RZA: You might go through all of his records and still won’t find that’s the sound. But I mixed FRANK ZAPPA with the theme from Ten Com- mandments. So anyway, and that’s two different worlds right there, with some RZA drums and ****, and a ******* – wasn’t even a real high hat in that song.
AT: But under you it was all able to come together!
RZA: exactly, brought it together and collaged that **** together. So that’s art. You know what I mean?