NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[CP1708]

This offseason is going to speak to a lot of these guys we are addressing. 

Does J Kidd have anything left? 

Where does Steve Nash go?  Can he add a ring, or stay in Phoenix and just end with some nice numbers and join Bark, Malone, Stock, etc?

Ray Allen and KG, do they chase, stay together, or go off into the HOF with what they have? 

Dirk, Kobe, Duncan, and Pierce, do they have enough around them to make another run, all with the same team they've played their entire career with? 

Bron and Wade, what will they do for an encore? 


We've already lost Shaq since this thread started, it will be pretty damn sad when some of these others start walkin away.  Only a handful of greats from the 90's still remain, but they still have time to move up some charts, both wins wise, and numbers wise dependant on this offseason. 


And I agree with Chester.  I've ridden on Lebron for several years, all I asked was for him to get IT.  Then, it happened.  Now, I sit back and enjoy the show. 

Lastly, sometimes when guys win the first championship it feels like they're going to a party. First they pay their cover charge (Charles Barkely and Karl Malone are the two bitter bouncers at the door) and poke their head in to see if they recognize anyone to go talk to and hope they fit in. They hope they actually do belong. Some stick, other pass out drunk on the yard and forget to wake up (Dirk?) or get in a fight they lose (Walton). But, Magic and Larry are playing each other on the beer pong table for hours. Oscar Robertson is bad mouthing everyone else to the girls he's talking to. MJ is in a VIP room with Kobe walking past trying to get a look out of the corner of his eye. Russell, Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem are arguing amongst each other. Wilt is..do I really have to tell you where Wilt is? 

LeBron was an hour late but came barreling in, carrying a keg over his head. As if to say, 'Sorry I was late, but the party is here.' Personally, I hope it doesn't end anytime soon. 

Gold 

 

[KMante]

Originally Posted by toine2983

Originally Posted by University of Nike

... is what I've been waiting years for. Rings are nice, MVPs are nice, stats are nice - but LeBron finally went into THAT zone.

His performance in Game 6 of the ECF was one for the ages.

I think that was the best game of LeBron's career including what he did in this years Finals.

Straight stone cold assassin.

Great write up BTW allen.

This sums up everything for me. That mess gave me chills!

Great Thread!
  

 

[CosmicGhostRider]

GREAT write up Al3xis!

 

[sosap23]

Originally Posted by jQQQQQ

GREAT write up Al3xis!

 

[CP1708]

Yuku'd

 

[ssjjfar]

Lebron +1
Wade +1

 

[CP1708]

Update - But it sucks, everything's all broken up in the OP. :\ I'm trying to clean it up and make it all spoilered again.

Anyways, this year becomes HUGE for ALOT of legacies.


Bron + Wade will try to back to back and certainly solidify their standings in NBA lore. Only now, they will add a legacy with them, Ray Allen

KG, and Pierce will lose the connection with Allen, but Rondo is entering that point where we may start to look at his resume a bit closer, either way, KG + Pierce have one last ride together

Steve Nash has thrown his legacy with Kobe's, and to a smaller extend Pau Gasol's and a still early Rondoish Dwight Howard. Howard is no longer a baby, he's entering his prime and his resume will start setting up real soon. Nash and Kobe both have larger goals they want to add to their resume.

Jason Kidd gave up and joined Melo.

Ok, just kidding, that was mean. But still, Kidd is more numbers than anything right now, I don't think titles are in his future right now.

Dirk has been left alone legacy wise, and he took a bit of a hit after the way he played following his crowning moment. He needs a big comeback to clean that taste out of everyone's mouths.

Tim Duncan is in the same stage he's been for a while, trying to get one last hurrah before he hangs them up. In 2007 he had a GINORMOUS gap between he and Kevin Garnett, but since 08, Garnett has done nothing but inch closer and closer. Both are nearing the end, both have one final shot at something and can add both numbers and title to their legacy with some lucky bounces.

Kevin Durant is still only 23, waaaaaaay too early for him to be in here, but he has the best chance outside these "older" guys to do something historic. If he were to win it all in June, his resume goes thru the roof along with the expectations of what else he can add to it. Consider him on the watch list with Rondo and Howard.


Not a lot of time left for some of these guys. The NBA will lose guys like Kidd, Grant Hill, Duncan, Nash, KG, Allen, Dirk, Kobe, Pierce, all within the next 3-4 years. So what they do now can only enhance what they've all already accomplished, but they all would want to get a little Gary Payton on how he went on to win a last hurrah title in 2006. These guys all want either their first, or their last title before they hang it up for good.

Update those resumes.

 

[CP1708]

Bill Simmons just before the 2012-13 season starts. Awesome write up on Lebron and what could be coming.

LeBron's Quest for Immortality
With a title in hand, the next step for King James is to secure his legacy
By Bill Simmons on October 26, 2012PRINTAt the relatively tender age of 28, he stands alone on the mountaintop, unquestionably the most famous athlete on the planet and one of its most famous citizens of any kind. We've heard it so often that it's now a cliche, though nonetheless accurate: He transcends sports."
— Sports Illustrated

You thought that was about LeBron, didn't you? Nope. Jack McCallum wrote that about Michael Jordan nearly 21 years ago, in December of 1991, as the lead paragraph of the magazine's "Sportsman of the Year" feature. When Danny Biasone's 24-second shot clock saved the NBA in 1954, the same year of Sports Illustrated's launch, it inadvertently positioned the magazine as the mainstream media's stamp of approval anytime an NBA star either revolutionized the sport or transcended it. In 1956, they dubbed Bob Cousy a "creative genius" and "nothing less than the greatest all-round player in the 64-year history of basketball." In 1963, they celebrated Bill Russell's brilliance and called him "the most remarkable basketball player of our time." And it just kept going from there. Five years before Jordan's 1991 coronation, Larry Bird adorned the magazine's cover with the headline "The Living Legend," which featured a barrage of gushing quotes and wondered if Bird's supremacy had surpassed even Russell and Kareem. As usual, Bird was the one who ended up putting everything in perspective.

"All I know is that people tend to forget how great the older great players were," (said) Bird. "It'll happen that way with me, too."

Now we're doing this dance with the latest object of everyone's affection, LeBron James, the best basketball player in 20 years. We spent nearly nine years picking him apart before he flipped the narrative, borrowing the finest qualities of Bird, Magic and Jordan and blending them together into a superstar smoothie during last year's playoffs. When his team needed him to score, he unleashed the most complicated inside/outside game since Jordan's second prime. When they needed him to create shots for teammates, he found them wide-open over and over again. When they needed rebounds, he pounded the boards like Barkley or Moses in their primes. When they needed to slow down an opposing scorer, he guarded that player and the player stopped scoring (no matter what position he played).

LeBron James churned out 44 minutes a night, every other night, for eight straight weeks without ever wearing down. He played two of the greatest two-way playoff basketball games in the history of the league: Game 4 at Indiana (40 points, 18 rebounds, nine assists) and Game 6 at Boston (45 points, 15 rebounds, only seven missed shots), then threw on a Larry Bird 2.0 costume in the Finals, destroyed Oklahoma City in the low post, liquidated the media's absurd "LeBron or Durant?" argument and averaged a triple-double in the deciding two games. I called it a "virtuoso basketball performance" at the time, but really, it was more of a watershed athletic achievement — no different than Roger Bannister breaking the four-minute mile or Carl Lewis trying to jump 30 feet. You shouldn't be able to play basketball like that.

For the first time in a long time, someone made the sport of basketball feel like a Little League game with one of Those Kids — you know, those oversize five-tool freaks who seem like they're 20 when they're really just 12. I will never forget sitting next to my father during Game 6 of the Celtics series, both of us getting shamed into silence because LeBron couldn't miss, waiting for him to sweat, waiting for him to tire, waiting for any sign that he was human. It just wasn't happening. The last time I felt that helpless during a sporting event, Jordan and Pippen were ripping through a pathetic Celtics team in the mid-'90s — they were playing at such a high level, we couldn't help showing our appreciation by cheering them when they finally came out. What else could you do? When were we going to see something like that again? Two guys covering the whole court? Two guys playing that beautifully together? What if we never saw that again? Didn't we have to acknowledge it? Didn't we have to let them know that we knew?

LeBron peaked in a similar way during those last two and a half playoff rounds, and really, you couldn't blame him if he coasted from here — his hunger satiated, his point proven, the monkey pulled off his back and subsequently stomped to death. Everyone handles this moment differently. Jordan (1991), Magic (1987), Walton (1977), Hakeem (1994) and Bird (1986) returned more inspired than ever, but it was the worst thing that ever happened to Shaq — after his 2000 title, he realized his immense physical advantages allowed him to enjoy his summers, use regular seasons to work himself into shape, then take over when it truly mattered. And he was right — the Lakers won two more titles that way, even if they left another three on the table.

Wilt suffered as well: After briefly embracing controversial things like "teamwork" and "unselfishness" and defeating Russell's Celtics and winning his first championship in 1967, he couldn't maintain the momentum. He measured his own worth by numbers, not team success. The following year, Wilt went overboard with the "unselfish" gimmick, desperately tried to lead the league in assists (he did), then mysteriously stopped shooting in the second half of an eventual Game 7 loss to Boston. They traded him to Los Angeles a few months later. So much for Wilt "getting it."

So there's definitely a fork in the road with the "Year after The Year." The good news? There's an overwhelming amount of evidence that LeBron is heading toward that Jordan/Bird/Magic direction. When we were taping a television segment for ESPN last week, Magic Johnson mentioned how LeBron's "off the court" was catching up to LeBron's "on the court." In other words, he gets it now — that there's a cause and effect between how you spend your offseason and what actually happens during that season. We finished the segment and spent the next few minutes ************ about LeBron. Magic mentioned that LeBron could taste it now; he could tell by their phone calls over the summer. He believed Pat Riley's impact was so much more underrated than anyone realizes, that Riley has a way of just staying in your ear, appealing to you as a friend and a competitor, never letting up, never letting you stop thinking about what's next. Riley wouldn't push it that hard unless he thought LeBron wanted it. And Magic thought LeBron wanted it.

"It's like eating steak if you've never had steak," Magic said. "Once you taste it, you want more of it."

After LeBron spent his first eight seasons regarding the low post with genuine disdain, it took a humiliating 2011 Finals series for someone blessed with Karl Malone's body and Jordan's footwork to change his thinking. Once upon a time, Bird started the trend of using every summer to add one new weapon to his game, something Magic quickly copied, and then Jordan, Hakeem and Kobe used to their advantage the following two decades. Why wasn't LeBron following suit? For years and years, that was the easiest way to criticize him. As long as someone with LeBron's basketball intelligence refused to use what should have been his biggest advantage (an inside/outside game), then we couldn't believe in him. We wondered if he was destined to become the next Shaq or Wilt, someone with all the talent in the world who just couldn't harness those prodigious physical gifts … and even worse, didn't totally care.

Everything changed in the summer of 2011, and thanks to our friends at CourtVision, you can actually see how his offensive game matured. LeBron spent this summer working on his own version of Magic's junior sky hook (even asking the master for a few tips). Meanwhile, the Heat's offensive philosophy has evolved with him — they're gravitating toward a strategy that Holland's soccer team famously tried during the 1970s, something of an offensive Nirvana, where positions don't matter and players aren't pigeonholed with a formulaic set of expectations. For all we know, Miami might eliminate the sport's two most famous positions completely — point guard and center — so they can surround LeBron with Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and two shooters (Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mario Chalmers, etc.) 90 percent of the time.

You know what was really frightening? When Erik Spoelstra said the words, "Thinking conventionally that first season with LeBron — that was my biggest regret as a coach. I put LeBron in a box. And that's the worst thing I could have done." As a Celtics fan, I read those words and thought to myself, Good God, we're all screwed."

Of course, none of this would matter if LeBron didn't want it — and in this case, the word "it" covers "multiple titles," "dominance" and "true greatness" — but by all accounts, he does. During the Summer Olympics in London, observers were pleasantly surprised by a subtle shift in LeBron's personality: less clowning, more leading, more measuring himself against the other guys. Four years ago, he may have spent an hour shooting half-court shots. In 2012, he kept throwing himself into shooting contests with Durant and Kobe, determined to prove he could hold his own. Anytime one of the USA practices became heated and turned into something of a ****-measuring contest, something that tends to happen when you gather the best players in the world on the same floor, LeBron left little doubt who mattered most. By all accounts, he was clearly the best player on the team. And it wasn't close.

In 2008, when things were falling apart during that gold-medal game against Spain, everyone deferred to Kobe. In 2012, during a similar moment in the gold-medal game, there was an unforgettable stretch when Coach K frantically signaled for LeBron, then LeBron sat at the scorer's table for what felt like three hours, waiting for a dead-ball whistle so he could reenter a game that was suddenly slipping away. Finally, a crumbling Carmelo Anthony whipped a pass into the stands — inadvertently, his best play of the Olympics since it allowed LeBron to come back in — and within a few minutes, everything was fine. (LeBron made a dagger 3 and a backbreaking drive.) I can still remember sitting in the stands, freaking out, glancing over at LeBron at the scorer's table, wondering if he was ever getting back in, feeling like we were screwed if it didn't happen soon. You couldn't crystallize what happened last summer better than that.

You know who summed up LeBron's ascension better than anyone? My old friend Isiah Thomas! The same guy who saved my NBA book with "The Secret" of basketball dropped a little more wisdom to Sports Illustrated this week, explaining LeBron's current mind-set by saying, "Think about what I'm saying here. On the planet Earth, there is nobody better than you, and that gives you the confidence to walk around and say, I'm bigger than you, I'm better than you, and the only thing you can hope for is that I'm having a bad night."

That's exactly what it means to be LeBron James right now. The only thing that can stop him? If Dwyane Wade resists being relegated to "LeBron's sidekick" status again. During the last three weeks of the 2012 playoffs, their uneasy alpha-dog battle was resolved as organically as possible — Wade's aching knee forced LeBron to assume a bigger offensive burden, and just like that, Miami's team fell into place. To borrow a word from the great Bob Ryan, the Heat's calibration finally made sense. Everything ran through LeBron, with Wade reinventing himself as a new-wave Pippen almost on the fly. He spent the summer fixing his knee and getting himself into phenomenal shape, blowing everyone away during the preseason and leaving the door ajar — just a little — that he might not be ready to throw on that Robin costume again.

Then again, who has it better than Dwyane Wade right now? What if this was the plan all along? What if Wade and Riley were scheming years ago, We'll never be able to beat LeBron if he finds the right team, we need him on our side — we'll push him to another level, ride him to a few titles and never let him know that we were pulling the strings all along? Now that LeBron has established himself as the league's most dominant player, there's an overwhelming chance that Wade is delighted by this — it just means less work for him, right? And if that's the case, I am fully preparing for the monster LeBron season to end all monster LeBron seasons: 65 wins, 27 points a game, 10 rebounds a game, maybe even (gulp) 10 assists a game. Oh, while changing the way we watch and think about basketball, much like Cousy in 1956, or Russell in 1963, or Bird and Magic in the '80s, or Jordan a decade later.

And yeah, with the greatest basketball season in 20 years looming, I understand it's easy to get distracted by admittedly juicy story lines like the Lakers trotting out four future Hall of Famers, or two suddenly juicy Nets-Knicks and Clippers-Lakers rivalries, or Derrick Rose's potential comeback, or possible leap seasons for Rajon Rondo (a runner-up MVP candidate) and Kyrie Irving (as a top-15 guy), or Oklahoma City's "kids" using last year's bitter Finals defeat as motivation for a possible Eff You season. Just know that it's all window dressing — fun subplots to pass the time, keep us engaged, keep us arguing, keep us watching. From a big-picture standpoint? History says LeBron James is getting ready to destroy everybody. No other angle really matters.

If it happens — and I think it will — that means two straight titles and four MVP trophies in five years (something only Russell's ever done). For the first time, we could start thinking about him in Jordanian terms. What would it take for LeBron to pass Michael? Does he need six titles to get there? What if he ended up with five titles and six MVPs while also creating the 35-10-10 club (35,000 points, 10,000 assists, 10,000 rebounds)? Would that be enough? And if he continues to break ground as a power point guard — Bird 2.0 crossed with Magic, basically — shouldn't it matter that he created a new position? Also, how have we not hit LeBron's ceiling yet after nine years? Can we really go higher than what we witnessed last June? How high can this go? How long can this last?

For the first time, I feel myself starting to waver a little. Maybe Michael Jordan won't remain the greatest basketball player ever. Maybe we were wrong.

Of all the themes that have me excited for this upcoming NBA season, I keep circling back to that one. We love sports for dozens and dozens of reasons, but ultimately, the seasons and teams and championships blend into one blurry mess. You're going to be 80 years old someday and unable to remember 99.7 percent of it. Only a handful of athletes will stand out, and when someone asks if you watched them, your face will start glowing, and you'll start gushing about them, and for a few seconds, you will come to life again. Usually it's someone with unforgettable athletic ability (say, Usain Bolt or Bo Jackson), a supernatural mastery of his craft (Bird, Gretzky and Magic) and/or an indomitable will to conquer everyone else (Jordan, Ali and Russell). But when someone resonates in all three ways at the same time? Those are the ones we defend forever. We sing their praises, recall them on our deathbeds, tell everyone who wants to hear that we were there.

Those are the stakes for LeBron James this season. He already won a championship. Now he's battling for something else.

 

[CP1708]

That time again.

I don't know how much I can edit in the OP, it's kind of sketchy now with the Yuku to Huddler conversion. I can try to edit in some stuff, I'll do what I can.

Anyways, this series is HUGE for a lot of the people we have covered. Ray, Duncan, Bron, Wade, and to a lesser extent, Parker and Manu could be looked at, as well as Pop. Bosh and Spo will also have some things to add when we look at their career's five years from now. (not really right now tho)


Simmons had a great article last night, and the game damn near matched what he said. Duncan put up a huge game, Ray did what Ray does, and LeBron responded the way he does. Wade is the one that is "lessening" his legacy, even tho he might win his 3rd title tomorrow night. The Heat are -52 with him on the court in this series.


When I can, I will try to update ALL of the numbers of the players still in the game today with elite Legacies. Regular season, playoff, MVP's, Finals MVP's, All NBA, All Star, everything these guys have done in their career up to this point. I'll work on it on my lunch break today.

 

[CP1708]

It's done. Another season finished since we started this.

LeBron James, another MVP, Title, Finals MVP and various other accolades.

Wade, another Title.

Ray Allen, another Title, and maybe a Title swinging shot.

Duncan, another run to the Finals and All NBA First Team.




Totals for all:

LeBron:
2 Rings, 2 Finals MVPs, 4 Finals, 4 MVP's, 7 All NBA, 4 All Defensive First Team, Repeat Champion, 3 straight Finals, 21K+ points, 5,500 rebounds, 5,300 assists at 27.6, 7.3, 6.9 per game.
Playoffs he has 3871 points, #8 all time I believe, 1,191 rebounds, and 924 assists for 28.0, 8.6, and 6.7 per game. 9 All Stars. His resume is approaching top 5 all time easy. MJ, Kareem, Magic type look and feel to these totals.

Wade:
3 Rings, 1 Finals MVP, 4 Finals, 2 All NBA, Repeat Champion, 3 straight Finals, 16,500 points, 3,350 rebounds, 4,050 assists at 24.7, 5.1, 6.1 per game.
Playoffs he has 3,125 points, 721 rebounds, 691 assists for 23.6, 5.5 and 5.2 per game. 9 All Stars

Ray Allen:
2 Rings, 3 Finals, All Time NBA 3 point leader, 23,900 points, 5,067 rebounds, 4218 assists for 19.4, 4.1, and 3.4 per game.
Playoffs he has 2,564 points, 581 rebounds, 417 assists for 17, 3.8, and 2.8 per game. 10 All Stars

Tim Duncan:
4 Rings, 3 Finals MVP's, 5 Finals, 2 MVP's, 10 All NBA, 8 All Defensive First Team, shade under 24K points, 13,200 rebounds, 3,600 assists, for 20.2, 11.2, and 3.1 per game.
Playoffs he's at 4614 points, 5th-6th all time, 2,522 rebounds, 682 assists for 21.9, 11.9, 3.2 per game. 14 time All Star


I'll get the other players totals up some time later as we approach next season.

LeBron's numbers after 10 full years deserve to be looked at and projected ahead. They are stoooooooooopid.

Duncan has had an amazing career. But yet another elite just won back to back titles, and more to the point made back to back Finals, and Duncan has never done so. And he, like Pop lost another series when they had it and were in control. He was great this year, best year he's had since 2008, a top 10 player, but he and Bird both have one thing missing that others do not.

I am not as impressed by Ray's overall numbers as I thought I would be. Really surprised at his lower numbers. Crazy.

 

[dman14]

tmac- 1 finals appearance 0-1

 

[T0INE]

tmac- 1 finals appearance 0-1

 

[ny mavurs]

I feel bad for Duncan man. What he did in the playoffs at that age hasn't been seen since Kareem

 

[ogstoker55]

I'd love to do a writeup on Nash if this thread is still alive?

 

[CP1708]

I'd love to do a writeup on Nash if this thread is still alive?

By all means.

If I can't get it edited into the OP, I will use it in the post just below OP that got Yuku'd.

 

[airjordan jb23]

tmac- 1 finals appearance 0-1

 

[dman14]

heat winning, adds to dirks legacy, right? only team never to have lost to mia big 3 era.

 

[al3xis]

So,

I don't know where to start...but the major figures:

Most Titles:

Russell - 11
Jordan - 6
Kareem - 6
Magic - 5
Duncan - 5
Kobe - 5
Shaq - 4
Bird - 3
LeBron - 3
Wilt - 2
Hakeem - 2
Oscar - 1
West -1

Those are the guys I think LeBron shares the same air with - I'm undoubtedly jumping him ahead of Moses, Baylor, Erving, Malone, Havlicek, etc.

Finals MVP's:

Jordan - 6
Duncan - 3
LeBron - 3
Magic - 3
Shaq - 3
Kareem - 2
Kobe - 2
Hakeem - 2
Bird - 2
West - 1
Wilt - 1
Russell - N/A

Regular Season MVP's:

Kareem - 6
Jordan - 5
Russell - 5
Wilt - 4
LeBron - 4
Bird - 3
Magic - 3
Duncan - 2
Shaq - 1
Kobe - 1
Hakeem - 1
Oscar - 1
West - 0

All NBA 1st team-

Kobe - 11
Kareem - 10
Duncan - 10
LeBron - 10
West - 10
Jordan - 10
Oscar - 9
Bird - 9
Magic - 9
Shaq - 8
Wilt - 7
Hakeem - 6
Russell - 3




http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/simmons_pyramid.html

LeBron currently sits at:

Points: 26,833
Rebounds: 7,067
Assists: 6,815

If you project LeBron at a 22/7/6 clip over 70 games for the next 5 years (modestly) it puts him at:

34,500 points - 3rd all time.
9, 500 - mid 40's all time
9,000 - 7th or 8th all time
..and likely cracks Top 10 in steals with a 1 game over 5 years.

Oscar, Kobe and LeBron are the only members of a 25K/7K/6K club. There sure as hell is nobody in a 30K/8K/8K club and LeBron very well may end up going 35/10/10


His numbers, total and per game are absurd.

His per game numbers over 987 games is 27/7/7 on 50% shooting.

For comparison:

Jordan - 30/6/5 on 50%
Oscar - 26/8/10 on 49%
Bird - 24/10/6 on 50%
Kobe - 25/5/5 on 45%
West - 27/6/7 on 47%
Magic - 20/7/11 on 52%

And in the post-season:

Points: 5,572 - 4th all time
Rebounds: 1,758 - 9th all time
Assists - 1,348 - 3rd all time
Steals - 354 - 4th all time

If you give him the same modest projection of 22/7/6 over 5 years with, say 80 playoff games (16 a year..a couple more Finals, a missed trip here or there...this number is low, I would think)

Points: 7,732 - 1st place all time by nearly 1,500 points more than Jordan
Rebounds: 2,318 - 6th all time
Assists - 1,828 - 3rd all time but only 10 off of Stockton for 2nd
Steals - 1 game would put him into 1st

Also would become the all time Games played leader and minutes played.

Already has the highest Win Share total among any playoff performers.

Currently 5th all time in 3P made in post-season.

3rd all time in post-season PER behind Jordan and Mikan.


...
This is the list of players who maintained a PER of 30 or greater in a post-season that culminated in a title:

Jordan - 91
Jordan - 93
Shaq - 2000
LeBron - 2012
LeBron - 2016

That's it. LeBron just did this in his 13th season and his 6th consecutive Finals appearance. Larry Bird and Magic never made it to 13. Oscar and West made it to 14.

His per game numbers in the post-season are 28/9/7 on 48%.

For comparison:
Jordan - 33/6/6 on 49%
West - 27/67/ on 47%
Kobe - 26/5/5 on 45%
Bird - 24/10/7 on 47%
Oscar - 26/8/10 on 49%
Magic - 20/8/12 on 50%


The earliest LeBron's season has ended since his 3rd year is May 13th. Think about that, for 11 straight years he has been in the 2nd round or beyond. Since 2010-2011 the earliest his season has ended is June 12th. And this with 2 Olympics in this time-frame.

That is to say a way to measure LeBron's current state and past is waiting on the future. We will see how much advancement in recovery and conditioning will have on the next crop of stars. Can anyone match this? If nobody can, or even come close...it's a feather in the cap. Magic and Kobe can match him in bringing it over the long haul year after year and that's about it out of modern players. Magic was done early and Kobe finally broke down. Who knows what happens. I'd count Duncan here, too...but the Spurs put him on a maintenance plan 10 years ago

Winning Finals: (disclaimer, I'm not sorting through the losing ones - it's too many and I don't have time. But yes, I know 2011 is his low point)

LeBron:
2012: 29/10/7 on 47% - MVP
2013: 25/11/7 on 45% - MVP
2016: 30/11/9 on 49% - MVP

Bird:
1981: 15/15/7 on 41%
1984: 27/14/4 on 48% - MVP
1986: 24/10/10 on 48% - MVP

Magic:
1980: 21/12/9 on 57% - MVP
1982: 16/11/8 on 53% - MVP
1985: 18/7/14 on 49%
1987- 26/8/13 on 54% - MVP
1988- 21/6/13 on 55%

Kobe:
2000: 16/4/4 on 37%
2001: 25/8/6 on 42%
2002: 27/6/5 on 51%
2009: 32/6/7 on 43% - MVP
2010: 29/8/4 on 40% - MVP

Jordan:
I'm not bothering, the first 3 are stupid. The last 3 aren't as impressive but still.






...
What about the absolute 5 year stretches of basketball from the greats:

LeBron: 2012-2016
5 Finals
3 Titles
3 Finals MVP's
2 MVP's
5 First Team Selections

Magic: 84-88
4 Finals
3 Titles
1 Finals MVP
2 MVP's
5x 1st Team

Jordan: 89-93
3 Finals
3 Titles
3 Finals MVP's
2 MVP's
5x 1st Team

Bird: 84-88
4 Finals
2 Titles
2 Finals MVP's
3 MVP's
5x 1st Team

Kobe: 2006-2010
3 Finals
2 Titles
2 Finals MVP's
1 MVP
5x 1st Team

That is to say, I will argue these last 5 years against anyone's. And while it was his choice, it is impressive he did this while changing teams and going through 3 coaches - all that he brought to the Finals. We know what Pat Riley and Phil Jackson are. Spoelstra and Lue - lot of time to see.

What I am mostly getting at overall, is I believe we are at the point where you can argue LeBron is the 2nd greatest non-center to ever play the game. I will not argue Jordan, not yet at least. The numbers, the accolades, the actual game..I can't quite do it. Everyone else? Fair game. I would still likely lean Magic for 4th greatest all time (MJ, Russell, Kareem) but the totality of LeBron's career is likely going to over-weigh Magic's shorter one.


...

I do not necessarily give credit to coming back from 3-1 -- don't get down in the first place, but beating a 73 win team on their floor in Games 5 and 7 is absurd. And it does humor me that for having a 'front runner' label - LeBron's greatest triumphs came from being down in series:

Down 0-2 to Detroit in 2007 - wins next 4
Down 0-1 vs Chicago in 2011 - wins next 4
Down 2-3 to Boston in 2012 - wins next 2
Down 0-1 vs OKC in 2012 - wins next 4
Down 2-3 vs SA in 2013 - wins next 2
Down 1-3 vs GS in 2016 - wins next 3

Conversely, his biggest failure came with a series lead:

Up 2-1 vs Boston in 2010 - loses next 3
Up 1-0 vs Dallas in 2011 - loses 3 of 4
Up 2-1 vs GS in 2015 - loses next 3 (not a failure but still)


He has lost 2 series in 11 post-seasons in less than 6 games. 2007 in 4 and 2014 vs SA in 5. It is hard as hell to beat him in 4 times.

In the modern era:

Jordan was swept 2x and lost in 5 another.

Kobe was swept 3x and lost in 5 4x.

Magic was swept 2x and lost in 5 3x

Bird was swept 1x and lost in 5 1x

Shaq was swept 6x and lost in 5 2x

Duncan was swept 2x and lost in 5 4x

I am not trying to pull anything from this, just stating that beating him 4 times in quick fashion just does not happen, even with crap surrounding him at times.



...


All THAT said, I am not a numbers guy. I am not an accolades and accomplishment guy. But I'm putting that out there to view him in relation to the other great players. He matches up now, at 31 with nearly everyone short of a select few. He should have 3-4 top level years left and perhaps can ride into the sunset in a good situation in a complementary role.


I talked about his game enough in prior posts in this thread. Not much has changed. He has lost a step and gear that he can't bring consistently, but it was clear he could still hit that for a stretch of games when it was needed most. He is still a basketball genius and will be able to get by on smarts for a while.

His game has now passed through different eras - he entered a league that was low on scoring, still mostly ignored the 3pt line and resulted in slug-fests vs Boston and Detroit. He's now 31 and trying to keep up with pace and space and a losing math equation - his 2's vs their 3's. It is funny that perhaps his game now is best suited for then (2004-2010) and his game then is best suited for now (2011-2016). Jordan also saw eras swing - a free flowing game as a younger player that turned into a stalemate and grind as he aged (96-9 - but that often gets overlooked. Kobe got swallowed up in his late years by this - imagine how much he would have loved to finish his career in the late 90's just isolating on one side of the floor? Anyway, that is part of what made this Finals so great to me - he held it off.

Those are just some numbers and thoughts for now that I wanted to sort through and see it in text, so I figured I'd share. I'll probably have more thoughts as I decompress from this.


My order as of now goes:

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3 .Kareem
T4 - Magic and LeBron
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. West
11. Oscar

Next: Moses, Hakeem, Hondo

And I am vindicated and **** it feels good.

 

[CP1708]

*applause*

I'll update his resume with that post later this week. Will try to update the other players as well.

 

[big j 33]

Well done, sir.

 

[JD617]

Just out of curiosity, I looked at that stat, 30+ PER in a postseason that resulted in a chip, but I lowered it a little to 28+.

1991 Jordan
1993 Jordan
1998 Jordan
2000 Shaq
2001 Shaq
2002 Shaq
2003 Duncan
2012 LeBron
2013 LeBron
2016 LeBron

3 each for MJ, Shaq, and Bron, and 1 for Timmy. Pretty good company.

 

[dmxfury]

Nice update man

 

[ngloading]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3 .Kareem
T4 - Magic and Kobe
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Lebron
10. West
11. Oscar

I am not even hating.I am a realist.I place Lebron in the top ten of all time.I just do not glorify him as an untouchable god.

 

[7th Chamber]

That was a good read up there. Repped.

 

[seymore cake]

Great **** @CP1708 for this thread, I'd honestly forgot about it. Gotta tip my hat to Nolan and his vindication for reviving it

Good **** Nolan