Let's talk about Kobe's legacy......try your hardest to be objective...

[MVP]

Originally Posted by Bigmike23

Originally Posted by henz0

Fact remains - what did Jordan accomplish before he had a top 50 all time player by his side? MJ's career pre-pippen looks a lot like Kobe's post shaq, so far.

It takes more than 1 superstar, even if it's the best of all time, to put a dynasty together. if people are going to continue saying Kobe only won because of shaq, you've gotta give jordan the same treatment.. neither MJ nor Shaq could've done it without players of Kobe and Pippens caliber, and vice versa.

I understand what you're trying to say...... I totally agree with not being able to win without a top 50 player by your side.. but Mike CARRIED THE TEAM(s) just like Shaq CARRIED those laker championship teams. Which is why I said all my hate for kobe would go away if they win now because he has all the pieces around him to be able to CARRY that team to a championship.

again kobe was that lakers team 4th QTR closer he carried that team just as much as shaq did
This. I think when they say that Shaq "carried" that team, they are specifically talking about the Finals where Shaq was simplyunstoppable, but they forget the journey to get to that point, Kobe had just of as much of a burden on to get LA to that point and then Shaq went into beastmode to finish it. But there were NUMEROUS situations during the 3 peat years where Shaq wasn't even on the floor when the game was on the line b/c hefouled out or wasn't able to be trusted to hit FTs where Kobe had to be THAT guy and bring LA home. Kobe was almost always the guy taking the shot at theend of the game, even as a youngster, he was the closer.

 

[henz0]

Nobodys downplaying what he did, he was most def a key piece. But kno1s gonna glorify either like he was the main piece.

how did mike carry the team if he needed a top 50 player of all time along side him to win a championship... and lets not forget that MJ also had Rodman, one of the best defenders & rebounders of all time...

i swear people forget that mike was surrounded by talent every time he won a championship...
He carried the team because he was THAT dude. U need your rodman and pippen to win chips.. Kobe played pippen on the laker chip teams. Now its histime to be THAT dude. Lets see

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14


when has mike carried a team to do something great?

I think you dont know the meaning of the word carry.

once again... when has mike carried a team to do something great?

if you look at the context it was carry by himself...

No one in the history of man has carried a team by themself. But like Henz said Mike carried the bulls no question. Shaq carried the Lakers. Duncan carried the Spurs. You're thinking carry means putting it all on one persons back. No it doesnt mean that but If you ask anybody who was the best player hands down on those championship teams 100% will say Shaq and Jordan. No one will say Kobe or Pippen.

so then what do you mean carry... do you mean who was the best player on that team at the time... bcuz thats what it sounds like you're saying...

not to mention people severely downplay Pippen/Rodman's contributions to those Bulls championships...

just like people are severly downplaing Kobe contribution to the laker championships...

I don't know how to break it down simpler. When you see a great movie more than likely you say "Main Actor" did a great job that wasspectacular. You're not taking anything away from the "Supporting act" cause if they were crappy the movie would have been crappy but they werentand they added depth to the movie but at the end of the day you remember how great the lead actor's role was and you applaud them for the movie.

And I'm getting from you is you dont believe in the word carry because if MJ didnt carry his team to a championship then who did?

 

[ericberry14]

Originally Posted by henz0

Nobodys downplaying what he did, he was most def a key piece. But kno1s gonna glorify either like he was the main piece.

how did mike carry the team if he needed a top 50 player of all time along side him to win a championship... and lets not forget that MJ also had Rodman, one of the best defenders & rebounders of all time...

i swear people forget that mike was surrounded by talent every time he won a championship...

He carried the team because he was THAT dude. U need your rodman and pippen to win chips.. Kobe played pippen on the laker chip teams. Now its his time to be THAT dude. Lets see

so mike carried the team because he was that dude? come on henz, you gotta give me somethin better than that... i do agree that mike was theprolly 50% of the reason they won, but rodman/pippen were about 35% and the rest of the people were the other 15%...

mike aint carry that team to nothin... Pippen/Rodman got MJ over the hump to the championship level... so get that straight...

 

[craftsy21]

Originally Posted by henz0

I'm glad we can agree

But, that finals that the lakers lost, shaq was looking a little washed up and it was Kobes time to step up and they took the L. Took the L last yr against the celtics, and like I said he wasnt playing with BUMS so he's supposed to carry them over the top reguardless ofwho they're playing. Now if they dont win it this yr I definitely dont have any respect for him considering he has arguably the best overall team in the league

I agree to an extent - if he doesn't win again this year, it's not going to reflect very well on him. But in my own personal opinion,he's already validated himself enough. Anything from here on out awards/championship wise is all icing on the cake for him. He's already got numbers,hardware, titles... so he's got my respect as one of the greatest to ever play. It would just be a bit disappointing to see him not get another ring,seeing how much potential this Lakers squad he's on has had at times this year and last. They would be one of the softest teams to ever win a titlethough, that's for sure... at talented as they are offensively, they are cottenelle physically and in terms of a mean streak. I think people tend tooverrated guys like Gasol and Odom, given how hot and cold they go as players. Winning this year for the lakers, at this point, is going to take a strongmental effort rather than a skilled one.

i swear people forget that mike was surrounded by talent every time he won a championship...

We've talked about it before on here... Mike has this glow around him for some people, they seriously inflate everything he's ever done in life whileblocking out any bad parts. I think it's mostly just because of the marketing many of us had as kids, and the whole shoe game.. but NT'ers areseriously straight up in love with dude, like a beaten wife who can't press charges.

Dude is without a doubt one of the top 5 players of all time - mentally and physically. But man... you'd think you had slapped their moms, the way some ofthese dudes get mad when you don't give him hands down number 1, perfect in all ways.

 

[651akathepaul]

The Bulls only had Rodman for half their Championships.

 

[ericberry14]

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14


when has mike carried a team to do something great?

I think you dont know the meaning of the word carry.

once again... when has mike carried a team to do something great?

if you look at the context it was carry by himself...

No one in the history of man has carried a team by themself. But like Henz said Mike carried the bulls no question. Shaq carried the Lakers. Duncan carried the Spurs. You're thinking carry means putting it all on one persons back. No it doesnt mean that but If you ask anybody who was the best player hands down on those championship teams 100% will say Shaq and Jordan. No one will say Kobe or Pippen.

so then what do you mean carry... do you mean who was the best player on that team at the time... bcuz thats what it sounds like you're saying...

not to mention people severely downplay Pippen/Rodman's contributions to those Bulls championships...

just like people are severly downplaing Kobe contribution to the laker championships...

I don't know how to break it down simpler. When you see a great movie more than likely you say "Main Actor" did a great job that was spectacular. You're not taking anything away from the "Supporting act" cause if they were crappy the movie would have been crappy but they werent and they added depth to the movie but at the end of the day you remember how great the lead actor's role was and you applaud them for the movie.

And I'm getting from you is you dont believe in the word carry because if MJ didnt carry his team to a championship then who did?

i get what you're saying... & let me use another movie analogy...

when you have a great movie... the main actor may have done a great job playing his role... but alot of the time its the supporting actors that take the movieto the great level... they were great in their own right... so the main actor didnt carry the movie to greatness... he did his part, but the supporting cast iswhat took the movie from good to great...

you get what im sayin

 

[goldmember]

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

I brought up the 2004 finals because the Lakers didn't win BECAUSE of Kobe, and his attempt to be the man. He grew tired of hearing the fact that he was nothing more than Shaq's sidekick in the three-peat, so he gambled by hogging the ball and get one finals MVP, but instead he failed.

How do you people say stuff like this with a straight face? There is not truth in this statement whatsoever, it's complete hearsay and you're passing it off like it's factual. Just stop - there was a lot of things wrong with that 2004 lakers team.

Are u really comparing Shaq to Pippen?

Kobe starred as pippen in those finals appearances

Fact remains - what did Jordan accomplish before he had a top 50 all time player by his side? MJ's career pre-pippen looks a lot like Kobe's post shaq, so far.

It takes more than 1 superstar, even if it's the best of all time, to put a dynasty together. if people are going to continue saying Kobe only won because of shaq, you've gotta give jordan the same treatment.. neither MJ nor Shaq could've done it without players of Kobe and Pippens caliber, and vice versa.

So then if the Cavs win it all this year do you think Lebron is the undisputed best?....Considering he doesn't even have anyone on his team that is Top 50 in the league RIGHT NOW...Save for maybe MAYBE Mo.
No - not undisputed best after 1 title, but it certainly vaults him up the list of great ones pretty quickly considering he literally has nobody around him right now that will factor into the all-time greats list, as far as any of us can see right now.


Mo williams? I know he isnt Kobe/Pippen type of superstar but he is a big help to Lebron..

Plus wasnt he an all star this year? ..it aint sayin much but still...

But cmon when they were cruising last two series, no one was saying that Bron has nobody around him..

In this series, after they lost game 1 and barely won game 2 ...people was quick to say Bron got scrubs playing with him..

Doesnt make sense at all.. maybe i'll just give a lot of credit to the Magic..

 

[jville819]

^ Mo Williams is a scrub

 

[goldmember]

Originally Posted by jville819

^ Mo Williams is a scrub

Since when?

Game 1 of this series?

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14


when has mike carried a team to do something great?

I think you dont know the meaning of the word carry.

once again... when has mike carried a team to do something great?

if you look at the context it was carry by himself...

No one in the history of man has carried a team by themself. But like Henz said Mike carried the bulls no question. Shaq carried the Lakers. Duncan carried the Spurs. You're thinking carry means putting it all on one persons back. No it doesnt mean that but If you ask anybody who was the best player hands down on those championship teams 100% will say Shaq and Jordan. No one will say Kobe or Pippen.

so then what do you mean carry... do you mean who was the best player on that team at the time... bcuz thats what it sounds like you're saying...

not to mention people severely downplay Pippen/Rodman's contributions to those Bulls championships...

just like people are severly downplaing Kobe contribution to the laker championships...

I don't know how to break it down simpler. When you see a great movie more than likely you say "Main Actor" did a great job that was spectacular. You're not taking anything away from the "Supporting act" cause if they were crappy the movie would have been crappy but they werent and they added depth to the movie but at the end of the day you remember how great the lead actor's role was and you applaud them for the movie.

And I'm getting from you is you dont believe in the word carry because if MJ didnt carry his team to a championship then who did?

i get what you're saying... & let me use another movie analogy...

when you have a great movie... the main actor may have done a great job playing his role... but alot of the time its the supporting actors that take the movie to the great level... they were great in their own right... so the main actor didnt carry the movie to greatness... he did his part, but the supporting cast is what took the movie from good to great...

you get what im sayin

I get what you saying but you answered it your above post (not this one) 50% of the reason=carrying the team.

 

[651akathepaul]

That's not the argument....Lebron's wingman is Mo. Compare him with Pippen, Shaq or Kobe...In fact, compare him with any of the championship teamssuperstar wingmen ever and you undoubtedly get the point.

 

[goldmember]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

That's not the argument....Lebron's wingman is Mo. Compare him with Pippen, Shaq or Kobe...In fact, compare him with any of the championship teams superstar wingmen ever and you undoubtedly get the point.

I know what you're saying..

Let's just not act that Lebron got no help around him..

 

[651akathepaul]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

That's not the argument....Lebron's wingman is Mo. Compare him with Pippen, Shaq or Kobe...In fact, compare him with any of the championship teams superstar wingmen ever and you undoubtedly get the point.

I know what you're saying..

Let's just not act that Lebron got no help around him..

Every Champion in a team sport has help, thats what team sports are. It's just that some have more help than others. In this case the some get way morehelp.

 

[jville819]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

Originally Posted by jville819

^ Mo Williams is a scrub

Since when?

Game 1 of this series?

Since he started playing basketball

 

[ericberry14]

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Originally Posted by ericberry14


when has mike carried a team to do something great?

I think you dont know the meaning of the word carry.

once again... when has mike carried a team to do something great?

if you look at the context it was carry by himself...

No one in the history of man has carried a team by themself. But like Henz said Mike carried the bulls no question. Shaq carried the Lakers. Duncan carried the Spurs. You're thinking carry means putting it all on one persons back. No it doesnt mean that but If you ask anybody who was the best player hands down on those championship teams 100% will say Shaq and Jordan. No one will say Kobe or Pippen.

so then what do you mean carry... do you mean who was the best player on that team at the time... bcuz thats what it sounds like you're saying...

not to mention people severely downplay Pippen/Rodman's contributions to those Bulls championships...

just like people are severly downplaing Kobe contribution to the laker championships...

I don't know how to break it down simpler. When you see a great movie more than likely you say "Main Actor" did a great job that was spectacular. You're not taking anything away from the "Supporting act" cause if they were crappy the movie would have been crappy but they werent and they added depth to the movie but at the end of the day you remember how great the lead actor's role was and you applaud them for the movie.

And I'm getting from you is you dont believe in the word carry because if MJ didnt carry his team to a championship then who did?

i get what you're saying... & let me use another movie analogy...

when you have a great movie... the main actor may have done a great job playing his role... but alot of the time its the supporting actors that take the movie to the great level... they were great in their own right... so the main actor didnt carry the movie to greatness... he did his part, but the supporting cast is what took the movie from good to great...

you get what im sayin

I get what you saying but you answered it your above post (not this one) 50% of the reason=carrying the team.

i disagree with that... i just dont think mike carried that team to the championship... take out Pippen & MJ doesnt have 6 championships...

so i dont think he carried that team... saying he carried that team is completely downplaying Pippen/Rodman which people tend to do on a consistent basis

but back to the topic at hand... Kobe Bean Bryant right now is a top 5-7 player of all time... if he wins a chip i'd put him at #4...

he just doesnt get the credit he deserves because of the following reasons:

he came right after MJ & right before LeBron...

he has been a polarizing figure since he came into the league

his perceived arrogance & perceived sense of entitlement

the incident in Colorado

His championship success with Shaq/lack of championship success without Shaq

 

[goldmember]

Originally Posted by jville819

Originally Posted by Goldmember

Originally Posted by jville819

^ Mo Williams is a scrub

Since when?

Game 1 of this series?

Since he started playing basketball

 

[craftsy21]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

I brought up the 2004 finals because the Lakers didn't win BECAUSE of Kobe, and his attempt to be the man. He grew tired of hearing the fact that he was nothing more than Shaq's sidekick in the three-peat, so he gambled by hogging the ball and get one finals MVP, but instead he failed.

How do you people say stuff like this with a straight face? There is not truth in this statement whatsoever, it's complete hearsay and you're passing it off like it's factual. Just stop - there was a lot of things wrong with that 2004 lakers team.

Are u really comparing Shaq to Pippen?

Kobe starred as pippen in those finals appearances

Fact remains - what did Jordan accomplish before he had a top 50 all time player by his side? MJ's career pre-pippen looks a lot like Kobe's post shaq, so far.

It takes more than 1 superstar, even if it's the best of all time, to put a dynasty together. if people are going to continue saying Kobe only won because of shaq, you've gotta give jordan the same treatment.. neither MJ nor Shaq could've done it without players of Kobe and Pippens caliber, and vice versa.

So then if the Cavs win it all this year do you think Lebron is the undisputed best?....Considering he doesn't even have anyone on his team that is Top 50 in the league RIGHT NOW...Save for maybe MAYBE Mo.

No - not undisputed best after 1 title, but it certainly vaults him up the list of great ones pretty quickly considering he literally has nobody around him right now that will factor into the all-time greats list, as far as any of us can see right now.


Mo williams? I know he isnt Kobe/Pippen type of superstar but he is a big help to Lebron..

Plus wasnt he an all star this year? ..it aint sayin much but still...

But cmon when they were cruising last two series, no one was saying that Bron has nobody around him..

In this series, after they lost game 1 and barely won game 2 ...people was quick to say Bron got scrubs playing with him..

Doesnt make sense at all.. maybe i'll just give a lot of credit to the Magic..


Mo really ain't anywhere near the level of guys like Pippen..... he's a nice role player, but he's more like a... i dunno, a RonHarper than a Pippen. A real nice player, but nobody who's winning jack without a superstar to lead him, and even then he's not enough.

And trust me, people who really know basketball weren't saying/thinking Bron had a squad around him.. this dude carries as much as I've ever seensomebody, probably even moreso than Kobe a few years back having to score 40 a night every night to win. I'm guessing this is as close to we'll eversee, somebody dominating like Wilt did.. just scoring at ease when he wants to.

Lebron carries the Cavs to the title this year, it's going to be something pretty amazing... just 2 years ago, nobody was really thinking he could do it incleveland by himself.. he was going to have to get some great help, or leave for greener pastures to get his titles. But this season he took it up anothernotch i'm not sure people thought he had in him.

 

[N41D]

Originally Posted by Bigmike23

mo williams is a BUM

He ain't a bum, but he really isn't any betterthan a guy like Jason Terry...

Regardless... Guys like that don't have any business being the second best player on a basketball team with championship aspirations...

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

Originally Posted by jville819

^ Mo Williams is a scrub

Since when?

Game 1 of this series?

Yes, since game 1 of this series, aka the most important two games for the Cavs this season... And he hasn't exactly been a non-scrub since the start ofthe playoffs either. It's just that the Cavs weren't in any danger during the first two rounds due to a combination of weak opponents and LeBron'sdominance. In this round, LeBron is still dominating but the opponent isn't weak anymore and Mo Williams' sorry 13-40 shooting over the first two games#@+ needs to step up.

 

[craftsy21]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Originally Posted by Bigmike23

mo williams is a BUM

He ain't a bum, but he really isn't any better than a guy like Jason Terry...

Regardless... Guys like that don't have any business being the second best player on a basketball team with championship aspirations...

throw Lamar Odom on that list... who else.. David West... Stephen Jackson...

 

[daddyrabbit251]

Man o man time flies, dude is 30 years old. People have thier favorite players like Jordan, Magic, ect but alot of those guys I didn't get to see themuntil the later parts of their careers. But Kobe, I've been watching and cheering for this dude for what seems like forever. I just hope he get that ringb4 he's gone

 

[i nasmatic i]

There's no way Kobe is top 5-7 of all time.

 

[80jerryrice80]

MJ/Scotty=Kobe/Shaq
except Shaq has the upper hand.
Because both scotty & MJ both won chips together, but clearly MJ had the upper hand.

Likewise, Shaq and Kobe won chips together, but Shaq has the upper hand because he's done it w/ another team.

 

[truthgetsbusy]

Originally Posted by I NaSmatic I

There's no way Kobe is top 5-7 of all time.

fine he's the 2nd best perimeter/wing player of all-time