LEBRON, THE DISAPPOINTMENT?

[shoeking2101]

did you just ruin your own argument ?

you do realize one individual not being able to dominate the whole league would be evidence towards talent being better now?

Exactly was literally in the middle of posting that

 

[hand2handking]

yea so as talent rises wouldnt there be someone al mike to dominate?

wilt did it? mike? whos dominant today?

 

[galaxynexus]

 
my whole thing is you want to say today's ball is better, fine.  

show who today is dominating the league like dominated in the 90s.  

we know there are a grip of hof'ers from back then, so who today is dominating our superstars today like how mike did to his comp?

Woops in my last post I meant to say most people usually conclude 90s superstars > anyone after the 90s > anyone before the 90s.

In regards to the bolded section of your post, it's a fair question with a few possible responses. I'll list them out with my thoughts, some more unscientific than others:

1) MJ dominated a watered down era - Many people point to expansion teams watering down the league's talent base and the fact that MJ had few peers at the swingman position. I mean can you name anyone better than LeBron or Durant at the SG/SF position in the 90s? I can't. I don't necessarily agree with this idea though. Moreover, today's league has zone defense and freakish defenders like Kawhi Leonard. It also seems like advanced analytics makes it harder  to dominate since player's weaknesses can get exploited. I know it goes both ways but still. I think the fact that in today's NFL, players like Manning/Brady put up #s no matter what type of freakishly advanced defense scheme gets put out there is a huge consideration when comparing them to say a Steve Young or even going back, a Unitas.

2) MJ dominated an era that wasn't as deep or skilled as this era - This one I can buy. Wilt dominated his era, does that mean he would dominate every other era? That's a fallacy and Bill Simmons and others have broken it down in way more detail than I'd ever like or care to.

3) MJ benefitted from playing w/ Phil, Pippen, Rodman, etc - This one gets brought up a lot and I think there's some merit to it. MJ won nothing before/after Pippen/Phil. Could he have? Probably, but we don't know for sure. 

4) Someone dominating an era does not necessarily mean he's better than an era where there's no clearly dominant player - I side with this point the most, of the 4 I just listed. I hate to use technology as an example but the fact that there's no clear superior smartphone doesn't mean that a phone that was dominant in say 2005 is > ....That sounds dumb right? Well yeah, that's my point lol.

Happy to keep discussing. Would also be interested to see if you guys have any other articles/analyses on comparing eras, specifically the 90s to today. We know 3pt % is higher overall, we know big men are now shooting the 3 ball more, we know coaches are catering to it more, etc...but would love to see more and more data as I continue to formulate my own opinions.

 

[galaxynexus]

 
What if someone who destroyed the 50s was placed into today's times, benefiting from today's technologies, today's dietary knowledge, today's trainers, workout regimens, etc... and Durant was placed in the 50s, w/ some ol' Chuck Taylors and a bottle of water? Methinks 'guy who dominated in the 50s' might come out on top.

People want to laugh at guys from previous decades as if everything is the same, straight across the board, as if the technological advancements and advancements in knowledge have NOTHING to do w/ today's athletes.

I see what you're trying to say but Durant isn't good because of the shoes he wears. He is arguably the most advanced basketball player we've ever seen and that has nothing to do with Powerade, Nike Zoom, etc. Just my opinion.

 

[cashbanks]

yea so as talent rises wouldnt there be someone al mike to dominate?

wilt did it? mike? whos dominant today?

you're killing yourself fam

talent has risen across the board

that would make it harder for one guy to standout and dominate

which brings me to another question what are we calling dominant? Wilt wasn't exactly running away with chips and Jordan didn't win **** before pippen hit his prime and he got the best coach EVER.

I take it you just mean scoring a whole bunch of points?

 

[darthska]

If you don't think that Johnny Athlete is benefiting from what we know today regarding targeted workouts, nutritional balance, performance enhancing equipment, etc... I mean... *shrugs*

 

[galaxynexus]

 
If you don't think that Johnny Athlete is benefiting from what we know today regarding targeted workouts, nutritional balance, performance enhancing equipment, etc... I mean... *shrugs*

Sure but did athletes in the 50s or 60s benefit from not having to deal with media / social media like they do today? Did they benefit from the sheer lack of video / analytics that allowed players to gameplan for players? It's a futile attempt at discrediting the current era.

Keep going though, popcorn is ready.

 

[galaxynexus]

you're killing yourself fam

talent has risen across the board

that would make it harder for one guy to standout and dominate

which brings me to another question what are we calling dominant? Wilt wasn't exactly running away with chips and Jordan didn't win **** before pippen hit his prime and he got the best coach EVER.

I take it you just mean scoring a whole bunch of points?

lol. let the dude breathe.

now playing: nas - ether 

 

[cashbanks]

Sure but did athletes in the 50s or 60s benefit from not having to deal with media / social media like they do today? Did they benefit from the sheer lack of video / analytics that allowed players to gameplan for players? It's a futile attempt at discrediting the current era.

Keep going though, popcorn is ready.

i dont think he discrediting the current era at all just stating a fact

but if you want to compare the advancements made in tech, nutrition and overall knowledge to guys not having as much film or not having to deal with twitter you go right ahead

 

[hand2handking]

 

yea so as talent rises wouldnt there be someone al mike to dominate?

wilt did it? mike? whos dominant today?

you're killing yourself fam

talent has risen across the board

that would make it harder for one guy to standout and dominate

which brings me to another question what are we calling dominant? Wilt wasn't exactly running away with chips and Jordan didn't win **** before pippen hit his prime and he got the best coach EVER.

I take it you just mean scoring a whole bunch of points?

you dominate your competition, no matter how good your comp is you are head and shoulders better

and yes it is scoring points as the point of basketball is to score.  the greatest players are unstoppable.

 

[darthska]

 

 
If you don't think that Johnny Athlete is benefiting from what we know today regarding targeted workouts, nutritional balance, performance enhancing equipment, etc... I mean... *shrugs*

Sure but did athletes in the 50s or 60s benefit from not having to deal with media / social media like they do today? Did they benefit from the sheer lack of video / analytics that allowed players to gameplan for players? It's a futile attempt at discrediting the current era.

Keep going though, popcorn is ready.

C'mon, man.

Which do you think is going to hold you back more, athletically? Having a dozen reporters in your face AFTER you and I play 1-on-1, or playing w/ some warm water in a bottle and a pair of ol' Chucks, while I'm playing in premium gear and had a focused workout this morning w/ an elite trainer?

And I'm not suggesting at all that Durant is Durant because he eats green beans and has an elite trainer, but I'm absolutely suggesting that what we know about working out and dieting and zoom air/FeetYouWear/etc is HELPING every athlete, the world over.

 

[galaxynexus]

 
C'mon, man.

Which do you think is going to hold you back more, athletically? Having a dozen reporters in your face AFTER you and I play 1-on-1, or playing w/ some warm water in a bottle and a pair of ol' Chucks, while I'm playing in premium gear and had a focused workout this morning w/ an elite trainer?

And I'm not suggesting at all that Durant is Durant because he eats green beans and has an elite trainer, but I'm absolutely suggesting that what we know about working out and dieting and zoom air/FeetYouWear/etc is HELPING every athlete, the world over.

But the very point your making is at the core of what the non-nostalgic folks have been saying: athletes today are better due to training, nutrition, analytics, etc.

I'm agreeing with you, but to say that a player like Durant would start playing like a drunk Pete Maravich...naw, I'm not buying that. 

If you want to qualify the evolution argument with training methods, nutrition, etc then don't you have you extend that logic to no longer definitively say that MJ > Russell, those who came before him? 

 

[hoosierdaddy317]

Bron gotta go back to Cleveland. Highly doubt he would win another title staying with the Heat. Wade's getting old, Bosh is pretty good offensively but a defensive liabilty.

The rest of the team just isn't that great at all. Kyrie > Wade. And they have the 1st overall pick. RESURRECT CLEVELAND WITH JOHNNY MANZIEL BRON!

 

[darthska]

 
I'm agreeing with you, but to say that a player like Durant would start playing like a drunk Pete Maravich...naw, I'm not buying that.

x2

It would be incredibly naive to suggest that Lebron would be a stumbling idiot 40 years ago because he's not wearing Nikes and drinking Powerade.

 

[fourtyeight48]

 
Bron gotta go back to Cleveland. Highly doubt he would win another title staying with the Heat. Wade's getting old, Bosh is pretty good offensively but a defensive liabilty.

The rest of the team just isn't that great at all. Kyrie > Wade. And they have the 1st overall pick. RESURRECT CLEVELAND WITH JOHNNY MANZIEL BRON!

LOL.

Bron will never go back to Cleveland as long as Gilbert is the owner.

All that disrespect him and Cleveland fans did after Bron left. You really think he'll go back?

Helllll NOOOOOOOOO

That franchise is horrible.

Do you really think LeBron will move his Wife and Kids from Miami back to Cleveland?

From hell to heaven and back to hell. 

Nah

Bron is going to retire a Heat or at least stay until he is out of his prime.

 

[fourtyeight48]

 

 
I'm agreeing with you, but to say that a player like Durant would start playing like a drunk Pete Maravich...naw, I'm not buying that.

x2

It would be incredibly naive to suggest that Lebron would be a stumbling idiot 40 years ago because he's not wearing Nikes and drinking Powerade.

agreed.

Jordan will still be getting 30+ ppg.

He'll still be an elite defender.

Barkely will still be a dominate PF

Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Admiral will still be dominate bigs.

Isiah Thomas and Magic will still be astounding PG's.

Lambeir will still be a flopper and the guy who does the dirty work.

Pippen wil still be that lockdown defender.

karl Malone will still be dominating at the PF position.

Stockton will still have his ast.

I can go on and on and on.........

I don't see how any player from the 90s or 80's wouldnt be able to dominate in this era as they did in their own era.

Just a close minded statement to me. 

Now if we go back to the 70's I can see that. The 70's had less athletic players in the league.

Dwight Howard would be considered one of the GOAT if he played in the 70's

 

[dipsetgeneral]

LeBron is the easiest target in sports. 2 championships out of four straight finals is a great accomplishment. Let's stop the nonsense people.

 

[mister friendly]

Magic was a generational passing talent but so was John Stockton

I'm not totally sold that Russell was the greatest defensive player of all time, I think he was the centerpiece of an all time great statistical defense. Have you seen how whole 1960's Celtic lead the 1960's defensive win share list?

Theres a big difference in stats and wins between Jordan and Lebron

If you put those 7 players on a team with a league average NBA rotation players, the favorited team by far would be the team with Wilt or Kareem

1. they Russel Celtics were number 1 in defense ever single year of his career, thery slipped to 2nd in his last year, they dropped down to 8th after he retired. He played the most important position on the most consistently dominant defense in league history, always dominated regardless of his teammates.

win shares for defense isn't useful, and is even less useful without blocks and steals, all it has is rebounding mintues and team wins to go off of, its basically a blind guess.

those Boston teams boasted the #3, #5, #6, #13, #22, and #23 ranked defenses in NBA history, and won 11 of 13 tittles with a pretty average to below average offense.


Bill Russel is the greatest defensive player in the history of the NBA, period. It's pretty impossible to argue otherwise, he played the most important defensive position on the most important and effective defense in league history, If you read anything about the 50's celtics Russel ran the d, Cousy/Bobby Jones/John Havelchek ran the o.

2. the other stuff im not going to bother with, I told I don't agree, there isn't a big difference to me between lebron and jordan, thats the way I feel about it and like I said this isn't something I've have casually thought about so nothing said is new to me so my opinion is pretty much set in stone on this issue.

I guess it could be argued Bill Russell was the most dominant defensive player in league history but its hard for me to really evaluate it without blocks and steals.

They say Chamberlain actually was just great of a defender as Russell its just that the Celtics had a better teammates, And that's what the limited stats and footage from the era says,

All of his Boston teammates are in the top leaders for defensive win shares for 1960s, Russell consistently played with far more Hall of Famers than any other player

I don't know how we can say the 1960's Celtics had the most dominant defense of in league history when the only defense stats we have are ppg and a defensive rating( which I have no idea how that is calcuated) we don't even have opponent shooting percentages.

The 1960s Celtic teams were always near the top in defensive rating but they were also always ranked near the bottom in offensive rating, so maybe their style of correlated to their high defensive rating.

I think Russell's impact is more on the intangible side than to say he was the greatest defender of all time when there is no individual stats to back up that claim

With the Jordan vs Lebron thing, all I can say is...... you are entitled to your opinion

 

[duba169]

LeBron is the easiest target in sports. 2 championships out of four straight finals is a great accomplishment. Let's stop the nonsense people.

It's just basketball. He's happy. Frankly you care more than he does.

 

[galaxynexus]

It's just basketball. He's happy. Frankly you care more than he does.

Both statements can be true in parallel, not sure how they conflict.