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Rondo definitely deserved it if Boston won. Anyone else would be a reach.
Kobe's game 7
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by purplerelgn,
- Start date
Why are people acting like the NBA Finals is an open court skills challenge? He played against the toughest defense the NBA has to offer with a broken finger. He was clearly out of gas and playing with all he had out there. Not to mention that the entire team shot poorly.
Yeah, except that Dwyane Wade and LeBron James played against that exact team's defense earlier in the playoffs and put up better and more efficient numbers than Kobe, yet they are considered as being stopped while Kobe's 40% shooting and 25% shooting in game 7 can't be considered as him being stopped just because he won in the end. He won because of superior coaching and a better supporting cast. And
I know I'm pretty much talking to a brick wall with you, but I'm bored so I'll throw in for the time being.
Explain this to me: Who wins? The team with the most points or the team with the best shooting percentage? You are set on the 40% because that is all you have to try and discredit Kobe. And that is all you want to do.
Someone says Kobe won, you'll say that he doesn't deserve credit.
Someone says Kobe scored 23 poinst in game 7 to lead all scorers, you'll say that he shot inefficiently.
Someone says Kobe had the key assist to Ron Artest, you'll say that he only had 2 assists.
Someone says Kobe snagged 15 rebounds, you'll say Gasol had 18.
Someone says Kobe was throwing up 30 pt games like it was nothing throughout the playoffs, you'll say he was off when it mattered.
Someone says Kobe had 15 freethrow attempts, you'll say he was bailed out by the refs.
I doubt someone like you would ever dare mention that Kobe is the glue that keeps the Lakers together. Kobe is the one in his teammates' ears at every dead ball. Why do his teammtes feel that it's worth mentioning that they play at the level that they do because they have a leader who demands the best from them? Does he deserve ANY credit for the things you can't measure with a box score stat?
You are also discrediting Boston's defensive effort to hold one on the greatest scorers the game has seen to 6-24 shooting. But I can understand why to a certain extent. For someone like you, it's a lot sexier to say Kobe was 6-24 from the floor with 4 turnovers than it is to say that he had 23 points and 15 rebounds. Why? Because the 23 and 15 are evidence to the fact that Kobe was not "stopped." He was held to a poor shooting night. There is a difference. He got to the line and gave his team points while the clock was stopped. He snagged 11 defensive rebounds to take away 2nd chance points from Boston. And I didn't mention the finger as an excuse for him shooting 40%. I mentioned it because I still can't believe that he played the whole damn season that way with tape and all.
Long story short, I'm just giving Kobe credit for what he does (win), while you're preoccupied with your dislike of how he does it.
So I'll end by saying that
70% > 40% [+]
7 Finals appearances in 10 NBA Seasons > 40% shooting performance in a series
I'm a brick wall? Nowhere in your reply to you address my pointing out how Wade and LeBron played against THE SAME Boston defense in the 2010 playoffs and outperformed Kobe by putting up better and more efficient numbers, but you keep on going about how how phenomenal this very same Boston defense is. And in the end, neither of Wade or Bron won because they didn't have a teammate putting up 19, 12, 4 and 3.
Someone says that Kobe didn't win jack *%+$ except lottery and first round exists between 2004 and 2007 and you say it's because he didn't have teammates.
Someone says that Kobe is winning now because he has great teammates and you say it's because of Kobe.
Someone says "Gasoft" bailed Kobe out by grabbing his 9th offensive rebound off a Kobe missed 3-pointer and preventing the Celtics from tying the game with a 3 deep in the fourth and you say nothing.
Someone says that Kobe has a bad game when he has a bad game and you say it's because of the finger.
And yeah, you best believe I'll say that Kobe is out "when it mattered" to point out just how hypocritical you Kobe stanboys are. Because all I hear from you Kobe stanboys throughout the regular season is that he's better than LeBron because he scores when it matters, aka game winners. "LeBron can put up 38, 12 and 8, but Kobe hits game winners". But when Kobe bricks up game 7 of the finals, then it's about everything else but the game 7. Customizing the criteria over and over and over again. You point out that Kobe had 15 rebounds. I've pointed out that he rebounded great, but that was the only thing he did. And BTW, when LeBron grabbed 19 rebounds in final game 6 against the Celtics, he "gave up" according to Kobe stanboys. So anyway, you point out that he had 15 rebounds. Let me ask you this: Is Kobe's basketball reputation built as being great rebounder or a great/most clutch scorer and best jump shooter according to Kobe stanboys? But of course, when he has the worst shooting percentage of any Finals MVP (haven't checked the stats, but I'm pretty sure that no Finals MVP since 1980 shot under .405) and the so clutch Kobe shoots 6 out of 24 in the crucial all-or-nothing, do-or-die game 7 of the NBA Finals, then somehow it's his 15 rebounds that mattered. Go ahead Kobe stanboy, customize some more.
TraSoul is a Denver Nugget fan.....not a Kobe stanboy. Just sayin.
Thing is, alot of what you say is true to an extent. And you very well may be right that .405 is the lowest of all the MVP's since 80. Probably is. So? Somebody has to be the lowest of the low over 30 years right? Does is change anything? Magic has the lowest scoring average of any MVP since 1980, in 82 when he got 16.2 a game. Change anything? Less deserving? Mark against his career?
It doesn't matter one way or the other. You are just as guilty customizing an argument for Bron as any of us are with Kobe. If you don't think that Kwame, Smush and Luke were a joke as 60% of a starting lineup, then I don't know what to tell you. If you don't expect us Laker fans (or Kobe stans) to point out that the guys Bron has played with the past 2 years won 125 games in the regular season, and then wet the bed and some of that has to fall on Lebron, no matter how good he played, then again, I don't know what to tell you. Kwame, Smush, and Luke Walton weren't winning 125 games over 2 years. Let's be real here.
Fact of the matter is, to this point, hate me or not for saying this, Kobe's career is light years ahead of Lebron's. Just as many many many people love to say Kobe is no Jordan, Lebron is no Kobe. Not even close. (in terms of career's to this point) That's a fact. .405 doesn't change that one single tiny bit.
Bron needs to start winning, and fast. Otherwise, this is all a bigger waste of time then any of us expected. Bron gonna be hanging out with Barkley, and Reggie and Malone and Ewing, while Kobe sits at the table with MJ, Magic, Kareem, and Horry.
Why are people acting like the NBA Finals is an open court skills challenge? He played against the toughest defense the NBA has to offer with a broken finger. He was clearly out of gas and playing with all he had out there. Not to mention that the entire team shot poorly.
Yeah, except that Dwyane Wade and LeBron James played against that exact team's defense earlier in the playoffs and put up better and more efficient numbers than Kobe, yet they are considered as being stopped while Kobe's 40% shooting and 25% shooting in game 7 can't be considered as him being stopped just because he won in the end. He won because of superior coaching and a better supporting cast. And
I know I'm pretty much talking to a brick wall with you, but I'm bored so I'll throw in for the time being.
Explain this to me: Who wins? The team with the most points or the team with the best shooting percentage? You are set on the 40% because that is all you have to try and discredit Kobe. And that is all you want to do.
Someone says Kobe won, you'll say that he doesn't deserve credit.
Someone says Kobe scored 23 poinst in game 7 to lead all scorers, you'll say that he shot inefficiently.
Someone says Kobe had the key assist to Ron Artest, you'll say that he only had 2 assists.
Someone says Kobe snagged 15 rebounds, you'll say Gasol had 18.
Someone says Kobe was throwing up 30 pt games like it was nothing throughout the playoffs, you'll say he was off when it mattered.
Someone says Kobe had 15 freethrow attempts, you'll say he was bailed out by the refs.
I doubt someone like you would ever dare mention that Kobe is the glue that keeps the Lakers together. Kobe is the one in his teammates' ears at every dead ball. Why do his teammtes feel that it's worth mentioning that they play at the level that they do because they have a leader who demands the best from them? Does he deserve ANY credit for the things you can't measure with a box score stat?
You are also discrediting Boston's defensive effort to hold one on the greatest scorers the game has seen to 6-24 shooting. But I can understand why to a certain extent. For someone like you, it's a lot sexier to say Kobe was 6-24 from the floor with 4 turnovers than it is to say that he had 23 points and 15 rebounds. Why? Because the 23 and 15 are evidence to the fact that Kobe was not "stopped." He was held to a poor shooting night. There is a difference. He got to the line and gave his team points while the clock was stopped. He snagged 11 defensive rebounds to take away 2nd chance points from Boston. And I didn't mention the finger as an excuse for him shooting 40%. I mentioned it because I still can't believe that he played the whole damn season that way with tape and all.
Long story short, I'm just giving Kobe credit for what he does (win), while you're preoccupied with your dislike of how he does it.
So I'll end by saying that
70% > 40% [+]
7 Finals appearances in 10 NBA Seasons > 40% shooting performance in a series
I'm a brick wall? Nowhere in your reply to you address my pointing out how Wade and LeBron played against THE SAME Boston defense in the 2010 playoffs and outperformed Kobe by putting up better and more efficient numbers, but you keep on going about how how phenomenal this very same Boston defense is. And in the end, neither of Wade or Bron won because they didn't have a teammate putting up 19, 12, 4 and 3.
Someone says that Kobe didn't win jack *%+$ except lottery and first round exists between 2004 and 2007 and you say it's because he didn't have teammates.
Someone says that Kobe is winning now because he has great teammates and you say it's because of Kobe.
Someone says "Gasoft" bailed Kobe out by grabbing his 9th offensive rebound off a Kobe missed 3-pointer and preventing the Celtics from tying the game with a 3 deep in the fourth and you say nothing.
Someone says that Kobe has a bad game when he has a bad game and you say it's because of the finger.
And yeah, you best believe I'll say that Kobe is out "when it mattered" to point out just how hypocritical you Kobe stanboys are. Because all I hear from you Kobe stanboys throughout the regular season is that he's better than LeBron because he scores when it matters, aka game winners. "LeBron can put up 38, 12 and 8, but Kobe hits game winners". But when Kobe bricks up game 7 of the finals, then it's about everything else but the game 7. Customizing the criteria over and over and over again. You point out that Kobe had 15 rebounds. I've pointed out that he rebounded great, but that was the only thing he did. And BTW, when LeBron grabbed 19 rebounds in final game 6 against the Celtics, he "gave up" according to Kobe stanboys. So anyway, you point out that he had 15 rebounds. Let me ask you this: Is Kobe's basketball reputation built as being great rebounder or a great/most clutch scorer and best jump shooter according to Kobe stanboys? But of course, when he has the worst shooting percentage of any Finals MVP (haven't checked the stats, but I'm pretty sure that no Finals MVP since 1980 shot under .405) and the so clutch Kobe shoots 6 out of 24 in the crucial all-or-nothing, do-or-die game 7 of the NBA Finals, then somehow it's his 15 rebounds that mattered. Go ahead Kobe stanboy, customize some more.
TraSoul is a Denver Nugget fan.....not a Kobe stanboy. Just sayin.
Thing is, alot of what you say is true to an extent. And you very well may be right that .405 is the lowest of all the MVP's since 80. Probably is. So? Somebody has to be the lowest of the low over 30 years right? Does is change anything? Magic has the lowest scoring average of any MVP since 1980, in 82 when he got 16.2 a game. Change anything? Less deserving? Mark against his career?
It doesn't matter one way or the other. You are just as guilty customizing an argument for Bron as any of us are with Kobe. If you don't think that Kwame, Smush and Luke were a joke as 60% of a starting lineup, then I don't know what to tell you. If you don't expect us Laker fans (or Kobe stans) to point out that the guys Bron has played with the past 2 years won 125 games in the regular season, and then wet the bed and some of that has to fall on Lebron, no matter how good he played, then again, I don't know what to tell you. Kwame, Smush, and Luke Walton weren't winning 125 games over 2 years. Let's be real here.
Fact of the matter is, to this point, hate me or not for saying this, Kobe's career is light years ahead of Lebron's. Just as many many many people love to say Kobe is no Jordan, Lebron is no Kobe. Not even close. (in terms of career's to this point) That's a fact. .405 doesn't change that one single tiny bit.
Bron needs to start winning, and fast. Otherwise, this is all a bigger waste of time then any of us expected. Bron gonna be hanging out with Barkley, and Reggie and Malone and Ewing, while Kobe sits at the table with MJ, Magic, Kareem, and Horry.
darthska
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TraSoul82:
It's just funny to see how the masses react to being fed nonsense from TV without thinking for themselves (which most people don't). So like I said, people will finally respect Kobe once the TV tells them to.
It's true that the media has a heavy influence on public opinion, but...
A player's persona/behavior has an influence on the media's bias before the media's bias has an influence on public opinion.
Jordan won the media over early in his career, so having millions in his corner througout his whole career is simply a positive consequence of playing 'poster boy' from day 1; I think we can ll agree LeBron is headed down the same path.
Kobe? Kobe hasn't been a positive media figure until like 4-5 years ago. Before that, he was a negative media figure for a bit, and before that, he was neutral, going back to the beginning of his career. Neutral and negative isn't going to cut it when it comes to gaining that positive media bias that influences public opinion.
In the end, though, it's obviously frustrating when someone shares anegative opinion of someone you're a fan of, but it's only going to frustrate you more to try and figure out where people's opinions originated from.
darthska
Staff member
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- Apr 30, 2004
TraSoul82:
It's just funny to see how the masses react to being fed nonsense from TV without thinking for themselves (which most people don't). So like I said, people will finally respect Kobe once the TV tells them to.
It's true that the media has a heavy influence on public opinion, but...
A player's persona/behavior has an influence on the media's bias before the media's bias has an influence on public opinion.
Jordan won the media over early in his career, so having millions in his corner througout his whole career is simply a positive consequence of playing 'poster boy' from day 1; I think we can ll agree LeBron is headed down the same path.
Kobe? Kobe hasn't been a positive media figure until like 4-5 years ago. Before that, he was a negative media figure for a bit, and before that, he was neutral, going back to the beginning of his career. Neutral and negative isn't going to cut it when it comes to gaining that positive media bias that influences public opinion.
In the end, though, it's obviously frustrating when someone shares anegative opinion of someone you're a fan of, but it's only going to frustrate you more to try and figure out where people's opinions originated from.
darthska
Staff member
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- Apr 30, 2004
AG 47:
What's considered a serious discussion? People were talking about it.
What's considered a serious discussion? A discussion where people are... serious. Not just 'talking about it', but seriously discussing it.
If you and I are calling a game and I say 'Kobe could be the MVP even if the Celtics win' and you agree, saying something like 'I want the folks at home to know, that has a very real chance of happening', that begins a serious discussion. That wasn't the case.
I mean, hell, I thought Nate Robinson could have been the MVP as soon as the Finals was over.
There we go; it was mentioned, so that credit must be given to Nate from now on, right? 'Nate is so good that it was mentioned that he could be MVP after the Lakers won!', right? Wrong.
The difference is... nothing. I read an article on ESPN about NFL refs wearing black & colored shirts instead of black & white. Guy must have been dead serious, right? I mean, he mentioned it, as a writer for ESPN.
Kobe being MVP in a losing effort wasn't seriously discussed, and I've spent too much time on the ridiculous notion that he was. If you want to believe that he was and add that to the list of reasons why he's so good, knock yourself out.
darthska
Staff member
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AG 47:
What's considered a serious discussion? People were talking about it.
What's considered a serious discussion? A discussion where people are... serious. Not just 'talking about it', but seriously discussing it.
If you and I are calling a game and I say 'Kobe could be the MVP even if the Celtics win' and you agree, saying something like 'I want the folks at home to know, that has a very real chance of happening', that begins a serious discussion. That wasn't the case.
I mean, hell, I thought Nate Robinson could have been the MVP as soon as the Finals was over.
There we go; it was mentioned, so that credit must be given to Nate from now on, right? 'Nate is so good that it was mentioned that he could be MVP after the Lakers won!', right? Wrong.
The difference is... nothing. I read an article on ESPN about NFL refs wearing black & colored shirts instead of black & white. Guy must have been dead serious, right? I mean, he mentioned it, as a writer for ESPN.
Kobe being MVP in a losing effort wasn't seriously discussed, and I've spent too much time on the ridiculous notion that he was. If you want to believe that he was and add that to the list of reasons why he's so good, knock yourself out.
xtapolapacetl
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Because you have no rebuttal that completely refutes his 40% factoid.
Why are people acting like the NBA Finals is an open court skills challenge? He played against the toughest defense the NBA has to offer with a broken finger. He was clearly out of gas and playing with all he had out there. Not to mention that the entire team shot poorly.
Yeah, except that Dwyane Wade and LeBron James played against that exact team's defense earlier in the playoffs and put up better and more efficient numbers than Kobe, yet they are considered as being stopped while Kobe's 40% shooting and 25% shooting in game 7 can't be considered as him being stopped just because he won in the end. He won because of superior coaching and a better supporting cast. And
I know I'm pretty much talking to a brick wall with you, but I'm bored so I'll throw in for the time being.
Explain this to me: Who wins? The team with the most points or the team with the best shooting percentage? You are set on the 40% because that is all you have to try and discredit Kobe. And that is all you want to do.
Someone says Kobe won, you'll say that he doesn't deserve credit.
Someone says Kobe scored 23 poinst in game 7 to lead all scorers, you'll say that he shot inefficiently.
Someone says Kobe had the key assist to Ron Artest, you'll say that he only had 2 assists.
Someone says Kobe snagged 15 rebounds, you'll say Gasol had 18.
Someone says Kobe was throwing up 30 pt games like it was nothing throughout the playoffs, you'll say he was off when it mattered.
Someone says Kobe had 15 freethrow attempts, you'll say he was bailed out by the refs.
I doubt someone like you would ever dare mention that Kobe is the glue that keeps the Lakers together. Kobe is the one in his teammates' ears at every dead ball. Why do his teammtes feel that it's worth mentioning that they play at the level that they do because they have a leader who demands the best from them? Does he deserve ANY credit for the things you can't measure with a box score stat?
You are also discrediting Boston's defensive effort to hold one on the greatest scorers the game has seen to 6-24 shooting. But I can understand why to a certain extent. For someone like you, it's a lot sexier to say Kobe was 6-24 from the floor with 4 turnovers than it is to say that he had 23 points and 15 rebounds. Why? Because the 23 and 15 are evidence to the fact that Kobe was not "stopped." He was held to a poor shooting night. There is a difference. He got to the line and gave his team points while the clock was stopped. He snagged 11 defensive rebounds to take away 2nd chance points from Boston. And I didn't mention the finger as an excuse for him shooting 40%. I mentioned it because I still can't believe that he played the whole damn season that way with tape and all.
Long story short, I'm just giving Kobe credit for what he does (win), while you're preoccupied with your dislike of how he does it.
So I'll end by saying that
70% > 40% [+]
7 Finals appearances in 10 NBA Seasons > 40% shooting performance in a series
I'm a brick wall? Nowhere in your reply to you address my pointing out how Wade and LeBron played against THE SAME Boston defense in the 2010 playoffs and outperformed Kobe by putting up better and more efficient numbers, but you keep on going about how how phenomenal this very same Boston defense is. And in the end, neither of Wade or Bron won because they didn't have a teammate putting up 19, 12, 4 and 3.
Someone says that Kobe didn't win jack *%+$ except lottery and first round exists between 2004 and 2007 and you say it's because he didn't have teammates.
Someone says that Kobe is winning now because he has great teammates and you say it's because of Kobe.
Someone says "Gasoft" bailed Kobe out by grabbing his 9th offensive rebound off a Kobe missed 3-pointer and preventing the Celtics from tying the game with a 3 deep in the fourth and you say nothing.
Someone says that Kobe has a bad game when he has a bad game and you say it's because of the finger.
And yeah, you best believe I'll say that Kobe is out "when it mattered" to point out just how hypocritical you Kobe stanboys are. Because all I hear from you Kobe stanboys throughout the regular season is that he's better than LeBron because he scores when it matters, aka game winners. "LeBron can put up 38, 12 and 8, but Kobe hits game winners". But when Kobe bricks up game 7 of the finals, then it's about everything else but the game 7. Customizing the criteria over and over and over again. You point out that Kobe had 15 rebounds. I've pointed out that he rebounded great, but that was the only thing he did. And BTW, when LeBron grabbed 19 rebounds in final game 6 against the Celtics, he "gave up" according to Kobe stanboys. So anyway, you point out that he had 15 rebounds. Let me ask you this: Is Kobe's basketball reputation built as being great rebounder or a great/most clutch scorer and best jump shooter according to Kobe stanboys? But of course, when he has the worst shooting percentage of any Finals MVP (haven't checked the stats, but I'm pretty sure that no Finals MVP since 1980 shot under .405) and the so clutch Kobe shoots 6 out of 24 in the crucial all-or-nothing, do-or-die game 7 of the NBA Finals, then somehow it's his 15 rebounds that mattered. Go ahead Kobe stanboy, customize some more.
TraSoul is a Denver Nugget fan.....not a Kobe stanboy. Just sayin.
Thing is, alot of what you say is true to an extent. And you very well may be right that .405 is the lowest of all the MVP's since 80. Probably is. So? Somebody has to be the lowest of the low over 30 years right? Does is change anything? Magic has the lowest scoring average of any MVP since 1980, in 82 when he got 16.2 a game. Change anything? Less deserving? Mark against his career?
It doesn't matter one way or the other. You are just as guilty customizing an argument for Bron as any of us are with Kobe. If you don't think that Kwame, Smush and Luke were a joke as 60% of a starting lineup, then I don't know what to tell you. If you don't expect us Laker fans (or Kobe stans) to point out that the guys Bron has played with the past 2 years won 125 games in the regular season, and then wet the bed and some of that has to fall on Lebron, no matter how good he played, then again, I don't know what to tell you. Kwame, Smush, and Luke Walton weren't winning 125 games over 2 years. Let's be real here.
Fact of the matter is, to this point, hate me or not for saying this, Kobe's career is light years ahead of Lebron's. Just as many many many people love to say Kobe is no Jordan, Lebron is no Kobe. Not even close. (in terms of career's to this point) That's a fact. .405 doesn't change that one single tiny bit.
Bron needs to start winning, and fast. Otherwise, this is all a bigger waste of time then any of us expected. Bron gonna be hanging out with Barkley, and Reggie and Malone and Ewing, while Kobe sits at the table with MJ, Magic, Kareem, and Horry.
Quit lying. You mentioned that again before and I'll tell you again: QUIT LYING! Or find some proof. I have NEVER customized my criteria for why I think LeBron is the greatest. I have ALWAYS taken the approach of evaluating LeBron (or any other player) as an individual rather than the success of his team and will continue to do so. Kobe won rings in 2000, 2001, 2002, then again in 2009 and 2010. In 2005, 2006 and 2007 he didn't come CLOSE to winning a ring. So what happened. Did his individual performance do a 180 some time around 2004 and then 180ied back again some time around 2007? On the contrary, years from now when someone makes a post asking what was Kobe's best season, by far most replies will say that Kobe's 05-06 season was his best one, and he didn't even come close to a ring that year. But somehow right now rings rank above individual performance.
Kwame, Smush, and Luke Walton weren't winning 125 games over 2 years? Who the hell do you think was winning 125 games over 2 years? Mo, Delonte and Varejao? The same guys who went 1-6 in the 7 games where LeBron didn't play in the past 2 seasons?
And you mentioning Magic's 1982 Finals MVP is comical and just works in favor of my arguing that Pau Gasol was robbed of this Finals MVP. His averages were closer to Gasol's than Kobe's. And please tell me how anyone could think that his 1982 finals MVP is a "mark against his career". It's a reflection of his career. Magic Johnson was never known as an elite scorer, but as an all-rounder and he almost averaged a triple double in the 82 finals. So 82 finals Magic was vintage Magic. Kobe on the other hand is supposed to be hands down the clutches player today and one of the clutchest of all time. But of course, his "clutchness" in game 7 is completely ignored.
So Kobe's game 7 performance was a complete contradiction of how Kobe stanboys have been promoting him: As a clutch player who came through and made the shots that mattered. But when game 7 ended, then suddenly Kobe was some elite rebounder with Kobe stanboys digging up box scores from previous NBA finals to show how he's not the only finals MVP who had bad shooting games. And in the end even those games they could find matched 6-24 nor did they come in a game 7.
xtapolapacetl
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Because you have no rebuttal that completely refutes his 40% factoid.
Why are people acting like the NBA Finals is an open court skills challenge? He played against the toughest defense the NBA has to offer with a broken finger. He was clearly out of gas and playing with all he had out there. Not to mention that the entire team shot poorly.
Yeah, except that Dwyane Wade and LeBron James played against that exact team's defense earlier in the playoffs and put up better and more efficient numbers than Kobe, yet they are considered as being stopped while Kobe's 40% shooting and 25% shooting in game 7 can't be considered as him being stopped just because he won in the end. He won because of superior coaching and a better supporting cast. And
I know I'm pretty much talking to a brick wall with you, but I'm bored so I'll throw in for the time being.
Explain this to me: Who wins? The team with the most points or the team with the best shooting percentage? You are set on the 40% because that is all you have to try and discredit Kobe. And that is all you want to do.
Someone says Kobe won, you'll say that he doesn't deserve credit.
Someone says Kobe scored 23 poinst in game 7 to lead all scorers, you'll say that he shot inefficiently.
Someone says Kobe had the key assist to Ron Artest, you'll say that he only had 2 assists.
Someone says Kobe snagged 15 rebounds, you'll say Gasol had 18.
Someone says Kobe was throwing up 30 pt games like it was nothing throughout the playoffs, you'll say he was off when it mattered.
Someone says Kobe had 15 freethrow attempts, you'll say he was bailed out by the refs.
I doubt someone like you would ever dare mention that Kobe is the glue that keeps the Lakers together. Kobe is the one in his teammates' ears at every dead ball. Why do his teammtes feel that it's worth mentioning that they play at the level that they do because they have a leader who demands the best from them? Does he deserve ANY credit for the things you can't measure with a box score stat?
You are also discrediting Boston's defensive effort to hold one on the greatest scorers the game has seen to 6-24 shooting. But I can understand why to a certain extent. For someone like you, it's a lot sexier to say Kobe was 6-24 from the floor with 4 turnovers than it is to say that he had 23 points and 15 rebounds. Why? Because the 23 and 15 are evidence to the fact that Kobe was not "stopped." He was held to a poor shooting night. There is a difference. He got to the line and gave his team points while the clock was stopped. He snagged 11 defensive rebounds to take away 2nd chance points from Boston. And I didn't mention the finger as an excuse for him shooting 40%. I mentioned it because I still can't believe that he played the whole damn season that way with tape and all.
Long story short, I'm just giving Kobe credit for what he does (win), while you're preoccupied with your dislike of how he does it.
So I'll end by saying that
70% > 40% [+]
7 Finals appearances in 10 NBA Seasons > 40% shooting performance in a series
I'm a brick wall? Nowhere in your reply to you address my pointing out how Wade and LeBron played against THE SAME Boston defense in the 2010 playoffs and outperformed Kobe by putting up better and more efficient numbers, but you keep on going about how how phenomenal this very same Boston defense is. And in the end, neither of Wade or Bron won because they didn't have a teammate putting up 19, 12, 4 and 3.
Someone says that Kobe didn't win jack *%+$ except lottery and first round exists between 2004 and 2007 and you say it's because he didn't have teammates.
Someone says that Kobe is winning now because he has great teammates and you say it's because of Kobe.
Someone says "Gasoft" bailed Kobe out by grabbing his 9th offensive rebound off a Kobe missed 3-pointer and preventing the Celtics from tying the game with a 3 deep in the fourth and you say nothing.
Someone says that Kobe has a bad game when he has a bad game and you say it's because of the finger.
And yeah, you best believe I'll say that Kobe is out "when it mattered" to point out just how hypocritical you Kobe stanboys are. Because all I hear from you Kobe stanboys throughout the regular season is that he's better than LeBron because he scores when it matters, aka game winners. "LeBron can put up 38, 12 and 8, but Kobe hits game winners". But when Kobe bricks up game 7 of the finals, then it's about everything else but the game 7. Customizing the criteria over and over and over again. You point out that Kobe had 15 rebounds. I've pointed out that he rebounded great, but that was the only thing he did. And BTW, when LeBron grabbed 19 rebounds in final game 6 against the Celtics, he "gave up" according to Kobe stanboys. So anyway, you point out that he had 15 rebounds. Let me ask you this: Is Kobe's basketball reputation built as being great rebounder or a great/most clutch scorer and best jump shooter according to Kobe stanboys? But of course, when he has the worst shooting percentage of any Finals MVP (haven't checked the stats, but I'm pretty sure that no Finals MVP since 1980 shot under .405) and the so clutch Kobe shoots 6 out of 24 in the crucial all-or-nothing, do-or-die game 7 of the NBA Finals, then somehow it's his 15 rebounds that mattered. Go ahead Kobe stanboy, customize some more.
TraSoul is a Denver Nugget fan.....not a Kobe stanboy. Just sayin.
Thing is, alot of what you say is true to an extent. And you very well may be right that .405 is the lowest of all the MVP's since 80. Probably is. So? Somebody has to be the lowest of the low over 30 years right? Does is change anything? Magic has the lowest scoring average of any MVP since 1980, in 82 when he got 16.2 a game. Change anything? Less deserving? Mark against his career?
It doesn't matter one way or the other. You are just as guilty customizing an argument for Bron as any of us are with Kobe. If you don't think that Kwame, Smush and Luke were a joke as 60% of a starting lineup, then I don't know what to tell you. If you don't expect us Laker fans (or Kobe stans) to point out that the guys Bron has played with the past 2 years won 125 games in the regular season, and then wet the bed and some of that has to fall on Lebron, no matter how good he played, then again, I don't know what to tell you. Kwame, Smush, and Luke Walton weren't winning 125 games over 2 years. Let's be real here.
Fact of the matter is, to this point, hate me or not for saying this, Kobe's career is light years ahead of Lebron's. Just as many many many people love to say Kobe is no Jordan, Lebron is no Kobe. Not even close. (in terms of career's to this point) That's a fact. .405 doesn't change that one single tiny bit.
Bron needs to start winning, and fast. Otherwise, this is all a bigger waste of time then any of us expected. Bron gonna be hanging out with Barkley, and Reggie and Malone and Ewing, while Kobe sits at the table with MJ, Magic, Kareem, and Horry.
Quit lying. You mentioned that again before and I'll tell you again: QUIT LYING! Or find some proof. I have NEVER customized my criteria for why I think LeBron is the greatest. I have ALWAYS taken the approach of evaluating LeBron (or any other player) as an individual rather than the success of his team and will continue to do so. Kobe won rings in 2000, 2001, 2002, then again in 2009 and 2010. In 2005, 2006 and 2007 he didn't come CLOSE to winning a ring. So what happened. Did his individual performance do a 180 some time around 2004 and then 180ied back again some time around 2007? On the contrary, years from now when someone makes a post asking what was Kobe's best season, by far most replies will say that Kobe's 05-06 season was his best one, and he didn't even come close to a ring that year. But somehow right now rings rank above individual performance.
Kwame, Smush, and Luke Walton weren't winning 125 games over 2 years? Who the hell do you think was winning 125 games over 2 years? Mo, Delonte and Varejao? The same guys who went 1-6 in the 7 games where LeBron didn't play in the past 2 seasons?
And you mentioning Magic's 1982 Finals MVP is comical and just works in favor of my arguing that Pau Gasol was robbed of this Finals MVP. His averages were closer to Gasol's than Kobe's. And please tell me how anyone could think that his 1982 finals MVP is a "mark against his career". It's a reflection of his career. Magic Johnson was never known as an elite scorer, but as an all-rounder and he almost averaged a triple double in the 82 finals. So 82 finals Magic was vintage Magic. Kobe on the other hand is supposed to be hands down the clutches player today and one of the clutchest of all time. But of course, his "clutchness" in game 7 is completely ignored.
So Kobe's game 7 performance was a complete contradiction of how Kobe stanboys have been promoting him: As a clutch player who came through and made the shots that mattered. But when game 7 ended, then suddenly Kobe was some elite rebounder with Kobe stanboys digging up box scores from previous NBA finals to show how he's not the only finals MVP who had bad shooting games. And in the end even those games they could find matched 6-24 nor did they come in a game 7.
darthska
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Dude, I was going to say the same thing about you customizing your arguments regarding LeBron. As far as finding proof, there are 2 reasons why I'm not going to waste my time.
#1- If I honestly thought that you would be receptive of the results, I'd do it. But you're definitely not receptive (at least not on NT), so I'm not even going to bother.
#2- This is a Kobe thread. One of many? Yeah, but a Kobe thread, nonetheless. Providing examples to you of the LeBron bias we all see would obviously steer things way off topic.
You have a strong LeBron bias, you customize arguments to praise LeBron, and if you don't think so, then... well, good for you. *thumbs up*
It's not worth trying to convince you otherwise, so I'm not going to, and I hope no one else does, either.
#1- If I honestly thought that you would be receptive of the results, I'd do it. But you're definitely not receptive (at least not on NT), so I'm not even going to bother.
#2- This is a Kobe thread. One of many? Yeah, but a Kobe thread, nonetheless. Providing examples to you of the LeBron bias we all see would obviously steer things way off topic.
You have a strong LeBron bias, you customize arguments to praise LeBron, and if you don't think so, then... well, good for you. *thumbs up*
darthska
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Dude, I was going to say the same thing about you customizing your arguments regarding LeBron. As far as finding proof, there are 2 reasons why I'm not going to waste my time.
#1- If I honestly thought that you would be receptive of the results, I'd do it. But you're definitely not receptive (at least not on NT), so I'm not even going to bother.
#2- This is a Kobe thread. One of many? Yeah, but a Kobe thread, nonetheless. Providing examples to you of the LeBron bias we all see would obviously steer things way off topic.
You have a strong LeBron bias, you customize arguments to praise LeBron, and if you don't think so, then... well, good for you. *thumbs up*
It's not worth trying to convince you otherwise, so I'm not going to, and I hope no one else does, either.
#1- If I honestly thought that you would be receptive of the results, I'd do it. But you're definitely not receptive (at least not on NT), so I'm not even going to bother.
#2- This is a Kobe thread. One of many? Yeah, but a Kobe thread, nonetheless. Providing examples to you of the LeBron bias we all see would obviously steer things way off topic.
You have a strong LeBron bias, you customize arguments to praise LeBron, and if you don't think so, then... well, good for you. *thumbs up*
Man, I had a pretty good reply typed in, and friggin Yuku lost it or something.
Eh, I can't remember everything I said, oh well.
I’ll try to remember what I said, see if it comes close to what I typed before.
You have brought up closer/finisher a lot. You seem pretty upset about Kobe fans proclaiming his clutchness. Yet, I’m thinkin you didn’t say much when he hit 7 game winners thru the course of the season. And while he certainly didn’t hit a game winner in game 7, he did in a sense, close the game out in solid fashion.
6-24 is horrible. No Laker fan says it wasn’t. But let’s look at the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter. Coming in, he was 5-20, for 13 points. Not good. But in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter, he was 1-4 for 10 points. Add in the assist to Artest to seal the deal (Jordan gets credit for his assist to Paxson doesn’t he?) and several rebounds in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter, and I would say he played pretty damn well closing out the game. Maybe not the way he closed out the Suns per say, but solid nonetheless right? Also, I don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but allow me to do so right here. LA became the first team to win a game 7 when coming into the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter trailing. Well, about half way thru, with the crowd getting louder, the Lakers pulled closer and closer before they finally tied it. (free throws by Kobe) Then a few moments later, he hits his first shot of the 4[sup]th[/sup], a pull up dagger over Ray Allen, a shot we’ve seen him hit a thousand times. Lakers up 4. The place was ready to explode, and I was sitting there saying, ok, here he goes now, he’s hitting free throws, he just hit this bucket, he we go……….Timeout, Doc Rivers. GREAT timeout IMO. I was pissed. I knew it when it happened, damn, there goes that momentum. You or anybody else can not deny that when Kobe gets going, forget it. He had gained a rhythm, I thought he was going to finish it, but I think that timeout stopped it. It was good timing. So hey, no worries about what he coulda done, or woulda done, we won the game.
But, 10 points on 4 shots. What is Doug Collins favorite saying? How many points per shot, etc etc? If it’s 2.0, you’re in great shape, if it’s 1.5, you start to struggle, you’re making the guy work for his points. Well, 2.5 would be what then? In game 7, in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter.
So what I’m sayin is, you keep harping on how terrible he was, and he didn’t close or clutch this game, he didn’t put his stamp on it. He didn’t? Somebody else scored 10 points in that 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter?
Like I have said, he was far from great in the game, but he played good enough to have his team in position, and they got it done. Discredit it all you want, that’s your right, but his “horrible
Eh, I can't remember everything I said, oh well.
I’ll try to remember what I said, see if it comes close to what I typed before.
You have brought up closer/finisher a lot. You seem pretty upset about Kobe fans proclaiming his clutchness. Yet, I’m thinkin you didn’t say much when he hit 7 game winners thru the course of the season. And while he certainly didn’t hit a game winner in game 7, he did in a sense, close the game out in solid fashion.
6-24 is horrible. No Laker fan says it wasn’t. But let’s look at the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter. Coming in, he was 5-20, for 13 points. Not good. But in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter, he was 1-4 for 10 points. Add in the assist to Artest to seal the deal (Jordan gets credit for his assist to Paxson doesn’t he?) and several rebounds in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter, and I would say he played pretty damn well closing out the game. Maybe not the way he closed out the Suns per say, but solid nonetheless right? Also, I don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but allow me to do so right here. LA became the first team to win a game 7 when coming into the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter trailing. Well, about half way thru, with the crowd getting louder, the Lakers pulled closer and closer before they finally tied it. (free throws by Kobe) Then a few moments later, he hits his first shot of the 4[sup]th[/sup], a pull up dagger over Ray Allen, a shot we’ve seen him hit a thousand times. Lakers up 4. The place was ready to explode, and I was sitting there saying, ok, here he goes now, he’s hitting free throws, he just hit this bucket, he we go……….Timeout, Doc Rivers. GREAT timeout IMO. I was pissed. I knew it when it happened, damn, there goes that momentum. You or anybody else can not deny that when Kobe gets going, forget it. He had gained a rhythm, I thought he was going to finish it, but I think that timeout stopped it. It was good timing. So hey, no worries about what he coulda done, or woulda done, we won the game.
But, 10 points on 4 shots. What is Doug Collins favorite saying? How many points per shot, etc etc? If it’s 2.0, you’re in great shape, if it’s 1.5, you start to struggle, you’re making the guy work for his points. Well, 2.5 would be what then? In game 7, in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter.
So what I’m sayin is, you keep harping on how terrible he was, and he didn’t close or clutch this game, he didn’t put his stamp on it. He didn’t? Somebody else scored 10 points in that 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter?
Like I have said, he was far from great in the game, but he played good enough to have his team in position, and they got it done. Discredit it all you want, that’s your right, but his “horrible
Man, I had a pretty good reply typed in, and friggin Yuku lost it or something.
Eh, I can't remember everything I said, oh well.
I’ll try to remember what I said, see if it comes close to what I typed before.
You have brought up closer/finisher a lot. You seem pretty upset about Kobe fans proclaiming his clutchness. Yet, I’m thinkin you didn’t say much when he hit 7 game winners thru the course of the season. And while he certainly didn’t hit a game winner in game 7, he did in a sense, close the game out in solid fashion.
6-24 is horrible. No Laker fan says it wasn’t. But let’s look at the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter. Coming in, he was 5-20, for 13 points. Not good. But in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter, he was 1-4 for 10 points. Add in the assist to Artest to seal the deal (Jordan gets credit for his assist to Paxson doesn’t he?) and several rebounds in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter, and I would say he played pretty damn well closing out the game. Maybe not the way he closed out the Suns per say, but solid nonetheless right? Also, I don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but allow me to do so right here. LA became the first team to win a game 7 when coming into the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter trailing. Well, about half way thru, with the crowd getting louder, the Lakers pulled closer and closer before they finally tied it. (free throws by Kobe) Then a few moments later, he hits his first shot of the 4[sup]th[/sup], a pull up dagger over Ray Allen, a shot we’ve seen him hit a thousand times. Lakers up 4. The place was ready to explode, and I was sitting there saying, ok, here he goes now, he’s hitting free throws, he just hit this bucket, he we go……….Timeout, Doc Rivers. GREAT timeout IMO. I was pissed. I knew it when it happened, damn, there goes that momentum. You or anybody else can not deny that when Kobe gets going, forget it. He had gained a rhythm, I thought he was going to finish it, but I think that timeout stopped it. It was good timing. So hey, no worries about what he coulda done, or woulda done, we won the game.
But, 10 points on 4 shots. What is Doug Collins favorite saying? How many points per shot, etc etc? If it’s 2.0, you’re in great shape, if it’s 1.5, you start to struggle, you’re making the guy work for his points. Well, 2.5 would be what then? In game 7, in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter.
So what I’m sayin is, you keep harping on how terrible he was, and he didn’t close or clutch this game, he didn’t put his stamp on it. He didn’t? Somebody else scored 10 points in that 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter?
Like I have said, he was far from great in the game, but he played good enough to have his team in position, and they got it done. Discredit it all you want, that’s your right, but his “horrible
Eh, I can't remember everything I said, oh well.
I’ll try to remember what I said, see if it comes close to what I typed before.
You have brought up closer/finisher a lot. You seem pretty upset about Kobe fans proclaiming his clutchness. Yet, I’m thinkin you didn’t say much when he hit 7 game winners thru the course of the season. And while he certainly didn’t hit a game winner in game 7, he did in a sense, close the game out in solid fashion.
6-24 is horrible. No Laker fan says it wasn’t. But let’s look at the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter. Coming in, he was 5-20, for 13 points. Not good. But in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter, he was 1-4 for 10 points. Add in the assist to Artest to seal the deal (Jordan gets credit for his assist to Paxson doesn’t he?) and several rebounds in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter, and I would say he played pretty damn well closing out the game. Maybe not the way he closed out the Suns per say, but solid nonetheless right? Also, I don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but allow me to do so right here. LA became the first team to win a game 7 when coming into the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter trailing. Well, about half way thru, with the crowd getting louder, the Lakers pulled closer and closer before they finally tied it. (free throws by Kobe) Then a few moments later, he hits his first shot of the 4[sup]th[/sup], a pull up dagger over Ray Allen, a shot we’ve seen him hit a thousand times. Lakers up 4. The place was ready to explode, and I was sitting there saying, ok, here he goes now, he’s hitting free throws, he just hit this bucket, he we go……….Timeout, Doc Rivers. GREAT timeout IMO. I was pissed. I knew it when it happened, damn, there goes that momentum. You or anybody else can not deny that when Kobe gets going, forget it. He had gained a rhythm, I thought he was going to finish it, but I think that timeout stopped it. It was good timing. So hey, no worries about what he coulda done, or woulda done, we won the game.
But, 10 points on 4 shots. What is Doug Collins favorite saying? How many points per shot, etc etc? If it’s 2.0, you’re in great shape, if it’s 1.5, you start to struggle, you’re making the guy work for his points. Well, 2.5 would be what then? In game 7, in the 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter.
So what I’m sayin is, you keep harping on how terrible he was, and he didn’t close or clutch this game, he didn’t put his stamp on it. He didn’t? Somebody else scored 10 points in that 4[sup]th[/sup] quarter?
Like I have said, he was far from great in the game, but he played good enough to have his team in position, and they got it done. Discredit it all you want, that’s your right, but his “horrible
xtapolapacetl
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I'm not upset with Kobe stanboys pointing out his clutchness, I'm upset how much the notion of clutchness suddenly lost importance after his horrid game 7 and suddenly it was about some of his other better games from the series, the fact that he grabbed 15 rebounds, etc. More customization than all the episodes of Pimp My Ride combined. My position on Kobe's regular season game winners is the same as it is now. I've pointed out that saying that a player is better than another because he hits more game winners is as ridiculous as saying that prime Reggie Miller is better than prime Clyde Drexler.
I think that Paxson gets more credit for hitting that three than Jordan does for the assist. And that wasn't MJ with the assist to Paxson, but Horace Grant. You must've mixed it up with Jordan to Steve Kerr, which was a much better double-team splitting pass than Kobe's to Artest. Eitherway, you can't compare that situation because the game was far from finished after Artest hit that 3. Rasheed hit a 3 right back, and after Rasheed's 3 Kobe tried to be the hero and throw up a 3 himself, but he bricked it. And this is where the real Finals MVP scapegoat to Kobe stanboys, softie Gasoft saved Kobe's +$+ by getting his 9th offensive rebound and a cheap trip to the line for Kobe (where he missed an and-one layup that he should've made BTW and got 2 free throws instead). And I'm not even counting Pau's clutch block and his field goals in the 4th. Go watch the entire 4th quarter again and only analyze Kobe and Gasol. If you think that Kobe closed the game more than Gasol, you have problems.
His horrible performance got him his 5th ring because two of his teammates had non-horrible performances.
I think that Paxson gets more credit for hitting that three than Jordan does for the assist. And that wasn't MJ with the assist to Paxson, but Horace Grant. You must've mixed it up with Jordan to Steve Kerr, which was a much better double-team splitting pass than Kobe's to Artest. Eitherway, you can't compare that situation because the game was far from finished after Artest hit that 3. Rasheed hit a 3 right back, and after Rasheed's 3 Kobe tried to be the hero and throw up a 3 himself, but he bricked it. And this is where the real Finals MVP scapegoat to Kobe stanboys, softie Gasoft saved Kobe's +$+ by getting his 9th offensive rebound and a cheap trip to the line for Kobe (where he missed an and-one layup that he should've made BTW and got 2 free throws instead). And I'm not even counting Pau's clutch block and his field goals in the 4th. Go watch the entire 4th quarter again and only analyze Kobe and Gasol. If you think that Kobe closed the game more than Gasol, you have problems.
His horrible performance got him his 5th ring because two of his teammates had non-horrible performances.
xtapolapacetl
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I'm not upset with Kobe stanboys pointing out his clutchness, I'm upset how much the notion of clutchness suddenly lost importance after his horrid game 7 and suddenly it was about some of his other better games from the series, the fact that he grabbed 15 rebounds, etc. More customization than all the episodes of Pimp My Ride combined. My position on Kobe's regular season game winners is the same as it is now. I've pointed out that saying that a player is better than another because he hits more game winners is as ridiculous as saying that prime Reggie Miller is better than prime Clyde Drexler.
I think that Paxson gets more credit for hitting that three than Jordan does for the assist. And that wasn't MJ with the assist to Paxson, but Horace Grant. You must've mixed it up with Jordan to Steve Kerr, which was a much better double-team splitting pass than Kobe's to Artest. Eitherway, you can't compare that situation because the game was far from finished after Artest hit that 3. Rasheed hit a 3 right back, and after Rasheed's 3 Kobe tried to be the hero and throw up a 3 himself, but he bricked it. And this is where the real Finals MVP scapegoat to Kobe stanboys, softie Gasoft saved Kobe's +$+ by getting his 9th offensive rebound and a cheap trip to the line for Kobe (where he missed an and-one layup that he should've made BTW and got 2 free throws instead). And I'm not even counting Pau's clutch block and his field goals in the 4th. Go watch the entire 4th quarter again and only analyze Kobe and Gasol. If you think that Kobe closed the game more than Gasol, you have problems.
His horrible performance got him his 5th ring because two of his teammates had non-horrible performances.
I think that Paxson gets more credit for hitting that three than Jordan does for the assist. And that wasn't MJ with the assist to Paxson, but Horace Grant. You must've mixed it up with Jordan to Steve Kerr, which was a much better double-team splitting pass than Kobe's to Artest. Eitherway, you can't compare that situation because the game was far from finished after Artest hit that 3. Rasheed hit a 3 right back, and after Rasheed's 3 Kobe tried to be the hero and throw up a 3 himself, but he bricked it. And this is where the real Finals MVP scapegoat to Kobe stanboys, softie Gasoft saved Kobe's +$+ by getting his 9th offensive rebound and a cheap trip to the line for Kobe (where he missed an and-one layup that he should've made BTW and got 2 free throws instead). And I'm not even counting Pau's clutch block and his field goals in the 4th. Go watch the entire 4th quarter again and only analyze Kobe and Gasol. If you think that Kobe closed the game more than Gasol, you have problems.
His horrible performance got him his 5th ring because two of his teammates had non-horrible performances.
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you guys are arguing with someone who claimed this
Xtapolapacetl wrote:
And 6 rings > 4 rings.. 6 being the amount of rings LeBron would have had a 21-year old LeBron James been on the Lakers roster with Shaq starting with the 1999-00 season, instead of a 21-year old Kobe Bryant.
arguments based on assumptions not worth the rebuttals CP, ska and etc.
and he calls people kobe stans?
hypocrisy at its finest
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you guys are arguing with someone who claimed this
Xtapolapacetl wrote:
And 6 rings > 4 rings.. 6 being the amount of rings LeBron would have had a 21-year old LeBron James been on the Lakers roster with Shaq starting with the 1999-00 season, instead of a 21-year old Kobe Bryant.
arguments based on assumptions not worth the rebuttals CP, ska and etc.
and he calls people kobe stans?
hypocrisy at its finest
xtapolapacetl
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arguments based on assumptions not worth the rebuttals CP, ska and etc.
and he calls people kobe stans?
hypocrisy at its finest
Not as hypocritical as claiming that it's all about clutchness, but then switching it when another player outclutches Kobe in the clutchest game possible.
xtapolapacetl
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arguments based on assumptions not worth the rebuttals CP, ska and etc.
and he calls people kobe stans?
hypocrisy at its finest
Not as hypocritical as claiming that it's all about clutchness, but then switching it when another player outclutches Kobe in the clutchest game possible.
Yup, you might be right, MJ to Kerr. And no, Artest didn't end the game, but up 6 with 1 minute left felt pretty solid at the time.
Pau did play well in the 4th, absolutely, no doubt about it. I never said he didn't. I don't think any other Laker fans did. But over the course of 28 quarters, he was not the better player then Kobe. Maybe in the most important quarter he was, thas fine, but after 6 games, I know you weren't hyping Pau as the MVP, you knew it, I knew it, we all knew it. After 6 games, nobody had mentioned Pau at all. Hell, after game 5 I was screaming about Pau only having 12 and 12 in that game. He was getting killed by KG and Baby Davis in Boston. And i mentioned that very fact somewhere here on NT that Pau was getting killed and anyone who tried to say he was more valuable then Kobe was crazy. And not one person came to Pau's defense after those games. No one. But when he has a great 4th quarter, now Kobe haters are begging for Pau to get the trophy? lol, come on.
Just for curiosity sakes, Ima see if I can find the shooting numbers back to 1980 though. If I can get the time, I'll put it together in here.
Yup, you might be right, MJ to Kerr. And no, Artest didn't end the game, but up 6 with 1 minute left felt pretty solid at the time.
Pau did play well in the 4th, absolutely, no doubt about it. I never said he didn't. I don't think any other Laker fans did. But over the course of 28 quarters, he was not the better player then Kobe. Maybe in the most important quarter he was, thas fine, but after 6 games, I know you weren't hyping Pau as the MVP, you knew it, I knew it, we all knew it. After 6 games, nobody had mentioned Pau at all. Hell, after game 5 I was screaming about Pau only having 12 and 12 in that game. He was getting killed by KG and Baby Davis in Boston. And i mentioned that very fact somewhere here on NT that Pau was getting killed and anyone who tried to say he was more valuable then Kobe was crazy. And not one person came to Pau's defense after those games. No one. But when he has a great 4th quarter, now Kobe haters are begging for Pau to get the trophy? lol, come on.
Just for curiosity sakes, Ima see if I can find the shooting numbers back to 1980 though. If I can get the time, I'll put it together in here.
Well.....
you should know by now, that I don't mind doin some leg work when I have time. I went and looked all this stuff up.
So, here's what we have, the worst shooting percentage we had all the way back to 1980 for a finals MVP was........Michael Jordan, 1996 at .415
After that? Tim Duncan, 2005 .419
That's almost comical really.
It should be noted, MJ had fewer points, fewer rebounds, fewer steals, fewer blocks, fewer 3's then Kobe did in this series, real close on assists, but MJ had a tick more 4.2 to 3.8.
I mean.......but hey, Kobe shot that 1 percent less I guess.
And I mean, it's not like MJ didn't have a guy that could have gotten the MVP too in Scottie, he had more boards, more assists, more steals, more blocks, more 3's........
But hey, I don't wanna customize this argument any further ya know. In fairness and what not.
Well, that was fun.
MJ also had a .427 in 98. Pierce was .432, Kobe was .430 last year, if Rip would have won instead of Billups, his shotting percentage was .405, but Billups numbers were better all the way across the board in that series.
So that's about it. Kobe should be ashamed to take a record like that away from MJ.
So, here's what we have, the worst shooting percentage we had all the way back to 1980 for a finals MVP was........Michael Jordan, 1996 at .415
After that? Tim Duncan, 2005 .419
That's almost comical really.
It should be noted, MJ had fewer points, fewer rebounds, fewer steals, fewer blocks, fewer 3's then Kobe did in this series, real close on assists, but MJ had a tick more 4.2 to 3.8.
I mean.......but hey, Kobe shot that 1 percent less I guess.
And I mean, it's not like MJ didn't have a guy that could have gotten the MVP too in Scottie, he had more boards, more assists, more steals, more blocks, more 3's........
But hey, I don't wanna customize this argument any further ya know. In fairness and what not.
Well, that was fun.
MJ also had a .427 in 98. Pierce was .432, Kobe was .430 last year, if Rip would have won instead of Billups, his shotting percentage was .405, but Billups numbers were better all the way across the board in that series.
So that's about it. Kobe should be ashamed to take a record like that away from MJ.
Well.....
you should know by now, that I don't mind doin some leg work when I have time. I went and looked all this stuff up.
So, here's what we have, the worst shooting percentage we had all the way back to 1980 for a finals MVP was........Michael Jordan, 1996 at .415
After that? Tim Duncan, 2005 .419
That's almost comical really.
It should be noted, MJ had fewer points, fewer rebounds, fewer steals, fewer blocks, fewer 3's then Kobe did in this series, real close on assists, but MJ had a tick more 4.2 to 3.8.
I mean.......but hey, Kobe shot that 1 percent less I guess.
And I mean, it's not like MJ didn't have a guy that could have gotten the MVP too in Scottie, he had more boards, more assists, more steals, more blocks, more 3's........
But hey, I don't wanna customize this argument any further ya know. In fairness and what not.
Well, that was fun.
MJ also had a .427 in 98. Pierce was .432, Kobe was .430 last year, if Rip would have won instead of Billups, his shotting percentage was .405, but Billups numbers were better all the way across the board in that series.
So that's about it. Kobe should be ashamed to take a record like that away from MJ.
So, here's what we have, the worst shooting percentage we had all the way back to 1980 for a finals MVP was........Michael Jordan, 1996 at .415
After that? Tim Duncan, 2005 .419
That's almost comical really.
It should be noted, MJ had fewer points, fewer rebounds, fewer steals, fewer blocks, fewer 3's then Kobe did in this series, real close on assists, but MJ had a tick more 4.2 to 3.8.
I mean.......but hey, Kobe shot that 1 percent less I guess.
And I mean, it's not like MJ didn't have a guy that could have gotten the MVP too in Scottie, he had more boards, more assists, more steals, more blocks, more 3's........
But hey, I don't wanna customize this argument any further ya know. In fairness and what not.
Well, that was fun.
MJ also had a .427 in 98. Pierce was .432, Kobe was .430 last year, if Rip would have won instead of Billups, his shotting percentage was .405, but Billups numbers were better all the way across the board in that series.
So that's about it. Kobe should be ashamed to take a record like that away from MJ.
- 3,545
- 434
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2004
It's true that the media has a heavy influence on public opinion, but...
A player's persona/behavior has an influence on the media's bias before the media's bias has an influence on public opinion.
Jordan won the media over early in his career, so having millions in his corner througout his whole career is simply a positive consequence of playing 'poster boy' from day 1; I think we can ll agree LeBron is headed down the same path.
Kobe? Kobe hasn't been a positive media figure until like 4-5 years ago. Before that, he was a negative media figure for a bit, and before that, he was neutral, going back to the beginning of his career. Neutral and negative isn't going to cut it when it comes to gaining that positive media bias that influences public opinion.
In the end, though, it's obviously frustrating when someone shares anegative opinion of someone you're a fan of, but it's only going to frustrate you more to try and figure out where people's opinions originated from.
Yeah, we can all agree that Kobe messed up pretty bad, as has Shaq and a few other media darlings in terms of off-court image. The parallel between Kobe and MJ that I see is that they both come off as pretty lame. It was MJ's vanilla personality combined with a slower-paced media outlet at the time that allowed Gatorade, McDonald's, etc. to market MJ little to no resistance from the public. Only today have details of Jordan's infidelity begun to surface and EVEN today the details surrounding the death of his father and the 2 year retirement are still murky. Kobe clearly wanted to be an updated MJ using his lingual skills, Hollywood smile, and superior rap skills to try and win the public over. But Kobe got sloppy and got himself into a situation that couldn't be swept under the rug.
Lebron has the persona, even if his arrogance makes a little cameo from time-to-time. But he seems to have a little problem of his own: Mom dukes. So far, she's kicked out a cop car window, got into it with Kevin Garnett, and is "rumored" to have slept with one of her son's teammates. Who knows what she does that hasn't gotten out just yet?
As for Kobe's on-court legacy, I feel that he has more than proven himself as this generation's (or: millenium's) Jordan, whether or not you like the terminology. Finals apperances, finals wins, back-to-back finals MVPs, Regular season MVP, All-Star MVPs. The hardware is there. The word that will define his overall legacy is redemption. From being on top of the world with Shaq, to falling into the pits with Katelyn, to climbing back to the top with Phil. He has proven himself to be the greatest example of NBA success since MJ, period. And he has done so in dramatic fashion. His victory celebration last season was an artificial ode to MJ. A photo-op of sorts. It was also evidence that it wasn't hard enough of a fight. This time around I saw Kobe panting and worried. He was frustrated with himself for shooting so poorly, but during the 3rd/4th quarter come-back he seem to let out his frustration by snagging defensive board after defensive board, clearing out and running the next play. The celebration this year was genuine. He knew he "earned" it this time around and any planned mannerisms seemed to be thrown out of the window.
This is why I'm commenting so much this time around (you know I usually steer clear of Kobe convos). For the first time I can remember, Kobe looked genuinely grateful for a win. He knew he had finally made some major seperation between himself and others in his class. As for others' motives for not giving folks the credit they deserve, I really don't concern myself with it. I just test their ability to rebut a logical argument. Most don't do a very good job at it and this time around is no exception.
- 3,545
- 434
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2004
It's true that the media has a heavy influence on public opinion, but...
A player's persona/behavior has an influence on the media's bias before the media's bias has an influence on public opinion.
Jordan won the media over early in his career, so having millions in his corner througout his whole career is simply a positive consequence of playing 'poster boy' from day 1; I think we can ll agree LeBron is headed down the same path.
Kobe? Kobe hasn't been a positive media figure until like 4-5 years ago. Before that, he was a negative media figure for a bit, and before that, he was neutral, going back to the beginning of his career. Neutral and negative isn't going to cut it when it comes to gaining that positive media bias that influences public opinion.
In the end, though, it's obviously frustrating when someone shares anegative opinion of someone you're a fan of, but it's only going to frustrate you more to try and figure out where people's opinions originated from.
Yeah, we can all agree that Kobe messed up pretty bad, as has Shaq and a few other media darlings in terms of off-court image. The parallel between Kobe and MJ that I see is that they both come off as pretty lame. It was MJ's vanilla personality combined with a slower-paced media outlet at the time that allowed Gatorade, McDonald's, etc. to market MJ little to no resistance from the public. Only today have details of Jordan's infidelity begun to surface and EVEN today the details surrounding the death of his father and the 2 year retirement are still murky. Kobe clearly wanted to be an updated MJ using his lingual skills, Hollywood smile, and superior rap skills to try and win the public over. But Kobe got sloppy and got himself into a situation that couldn't be swept under the rug.
Lebron has the persona, even if his arrogance makes a little cameo from time-to-time. But he seems to have a little problem of his own: Mom dukes. So far, she's kicked out a cop car window, got into it with Kevin Garnett, and is "rumored" to have slept with one of her son's teammates. Who knows what she does that hasn't gotten out just yet?
As for Kobe's on-court legacy, I feel that he has more than proven himself as this generation's (or: millenium's) Jordan, whether or not you like the terminology. Finals apperances, finals wins, back-to-back finals MVPs, Regular season MVP, All-Star MVPs. The hardware is there. The word that will define his overall legacy is redemption. From being on top of the world with Shaq, to falling into the pits with Katelyn, to climbing back to the top with Phil. He has proven himself to be the greatest example of NBA success since MJ, period. And he has done so in dramatic fashion. His victory celebration last season was an artificial ode to MJ. A photo-op of sorts. It was also evidence that it wasn't hard enough of a fight. This time around I saw Kobe panting and worried. He was frustrated with himself for shooting so poorly, but during the 3rd/4th quarter come-back he seem to let out his frustration by snagging defensive board after defensive board, clearing out and running the next play. The celebration this year was genuine. He knew he "earned" it this time around and any planned mannerisms seemed to be thrown out of the window.
This is why I'm commenting so much this time around (you know I usually steer clear of Kobe convos). For the first time I can remember, Kobe looked genuinely grateful for a win. He knew he had finally made some major seperation between himself and others in his class. As for others' motives for not giving folks the credit they deserve, I really don't concern myself with it. I just test their ability to rebut a logical argument. Most don't do a very good job at it and this time around is no exception.
