Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[me love nutella]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article-magazine/israels-dead-the-names-of-those-killed-in-hamas-massacres-and-the-israel-hamas-war/0000018b-325c-d450-a3af-7b5cf0210000

So people have been looking through these lists and saying there has been no identification of babies murdered between 0-3. Where the hell and how did this 40 beheaded babies by the IDF get spread out there? There are some children but very low so far.

Also, how many were intentionally targeted and killed by crossfire? A big number seems to be mostly within the 18-30 killed range, and some were breaking down these numbers saying most are active IDF or reservists.

Regardless, RIP to all.

 

[smedroc]

Both are wrong, this isn't a both sides issue long term but violence begets more violence

Are these Jewish prisoners not being held without due process?

Not a both sides issue??

 

[me love nutella]

Both are wrong, this isn't a both sides issue long term but violence begets more violence

Are these Jewish prisoners not being held without due process?

Where did I say that?

I said if we are going to speak of the 200+ Israeli hostages, then in the same breath speak of the 6000 Palestinian political prisoners who Palestinians also see as hostages.

 

[Brownstone]

Not a both sides issue??

A both sides issue to me represents an issue that currently contains a 50/50 split, while inherently every issue contains two sides, I feel this scenario falls outside of that as I would say anyone with a brain would say Palestinians are currently getting screwed.

 

[Brownstone]

Where did I say that?

I said if we are going to speak of the 200+ Israeli hostages, then in the same breath speak of the 6000 Palestinian political prisoners who Palestinians also see as hostages.

The problem with context is it really has to go back thousands of years which as you know is impossible for modern press and tbh a pretty high threshold for even the most respectable mediums and outlets to cover completely and honestly.

 

[getback]

Where did I say that?

I said if we are going to speak of the 200+ Israeli hostages, then in the same breath speak of the 6000 Palestinian political prisoners who Palestinians also see as hostages.

I was responding to a specific video clip of the Hamas head being interviewed.

 

[me love nutella]

A both sides issue to me represents an issue that currently contains a 50/50 split, while inherently every issue contains two sides, I feel this scenario falls outside of that as I would say anyone with a brain would say Palestinians are currently getting screwed.

It's not a both sides here. There's clearly one side that's the oppressed and occupied and resistance fighters and the other side which is a behemoth occupier and oppressor backed by the most superpowers advanced militaries in the world. There's also one side that has killed an immense more civilians disproportionately and indiscriminately compared to the aggression from the other side.

The imbalance of asymmetry and power dynamics is pretty clear. Also one side is the colonizer oppressing its colonized.

 

[ballinsam23]

Why are we at war for 100 years if it's only one side that's the issue here?

 

[moderndarwin]

Might be time to formally wave the white flag if you’re Palestinians and ask for refugee status from other countries. This seems like a terrible situation not sure what anyone expects as an amenable outcome except that they leave that land.

 

[DLF]

Might be time to formally wave the white flag if you’re Palestinians and ask for refugee status from other countries. This seems like a terrible situation not sure what anyone expects as an amenable outcome except that they leave that land.

Wave the white flag? Refugee status? Lol

 

[gry60]

That is from your standpoint looking at it from a black and white point of view because Palestinians know of the assymetry. They have tried all types of resistance, including non-resistance and peace talks, but also that includes violent resistance.

Not all violent resistance is the same, and you will not convince me that Palestinians have always fought clean, just like you won't convince me that all the actors of the Palestinian resistance merely want to be left alone. Previous Israel-Palestine flare ups have resulted in Israeli abuses with no condemnation from the countries that matter. That should be accounted for in the way Palestinian leaders confront Israel.

For a people who are against a behemoth and power that is backed the world's superpowers, Palestinians consider their resistance to be a big win because no one was able to get rid of them. Basically, Palestinians said that eventually they will be like the natives in North America and elsewhere if they do not keep up their fight. So to them, it is a win they haven't ended up that way yet.

The issue I'm pointing is that in fighting against Israel, they managed to alienate every other Arab nation, starting with their neighbors. We can't deny that their bad blood between Palestinians and Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese. These are all the nations that once fought alongside Palestinian militant groups to annihilate the concept of Israel.

Is there any reckoning within the Palestinian intellectual/political class about this?

I meant that Hamas does not rule the West Bank, as it is the PA. Hamas operate from many different regions around the Middle East. Also, I cannot take anything the IDF says at face value, because of all the lies and their propaganda.

Fair enough.

What I really disagreed with was the idea that Hamas doesn't have support/a presence in the WB. We know the ineffectiveness of Abbas in confronting the power of the IDF in that region is pushing people towards more drastic measures.

I cannot decide what the Palestinians want to rule over them, and that will be their choice, and let them figure it out. Usually, even if the government is secular, some will culturally still practice religiously. Again, not all Muslims are monolith. Like take away religion from it, and some atheist/secular Arabs still take on that very tribal/patriarchal thinking.

Also, at some point before the late 80s, I would say most the of the Middle East culture was more kind of "modern/secular" and the whole religious orthodox way seen as 'weird', but of course, culturally, it was still very patriarchal. So what if it shifts back to that? I think foreign interference is what helped foster the more orthodox religious fundamentalism as the anti-thesis to fight the West.

I think you're being extremely generous with the intentions of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. It's not like some of them are hiding what their goal is.

 

[me love nutella]

Not all violent resistance is the same, and you will not convince me that Palestinians have always fought clean, just like you won't convince me that all the actors of the Palestinian resistance merely want to be left alone. Previous Israel-Palestine flare ups have resulted in Israeli abuses with no condemnation from the countries that matter. That should be accounted for in the way Palestinian leaders confront Israel.

I never said Palestinians fought clean. That was not their intent. Their view is if they did not pick up arms, they would have been pushed into complete submission. Also, the point of the violent struggle is to bring attention to it.

The issue I'm pointing is that in fighting against Israel, they managed to alienate every other Arab nation, starting with their neighbors. We can't deny that their bad blood between Palestinians and Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese. These are all the nations that once fought alongside Palestinian militant groups to annihilate the concept of Israel.

Is there any reckoning within the Palestinian intellectual/political class about this?

I think some of this here lacks context. It was the Arab states that always neglected and alienated the Palestinians. Not the other way around. The Arab states were just using Palestinians as pawns. Let's remember that when the British carved up the Middle East, they propped them up with clans/tribes to rule over within conditions and agreements with them. That is the only reason in the first place these rulers came to rule the first independent sovereign states from their colonizers.

Also, we know how the story goes if you turn your back or push too much against the West/U.S., you will be toppled, go through enforced or aided regime change or assassinated (i.e. Saddam, Gaddafi, King Faisal, etc.).

What I really disagreed with was the idea that Hamas doesn't have support/a presence in the WB. We know the ineffectiveness of Abbas in confronting the power of the IDF in that region is pushing people towards more drastic measures.

Yes, they may have support, but I meant that the IDF cannot use the Hamas excuse on West Bank yet look at what has been going on there with the systematic human rights violations, apartheid, and occupation.

I think you're being extremely generous with the intentions of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. It's not like some of them are hiding what their goal is.

I was just saying let them figure it out. But also, I do wish there will be no foreign interference to interfere either. Let the people themselves then topple theses religious extremists if it can reach there. Palestinians are highly educated and can figure it out. Like people think Hamas are the Taliban/ISIS, when you can clearly see Palestinian women in Gaza are not enforced to wear the hijab, and many are even the local journalists reporting live from on the ground.

But, culturally, Muslim families will vary in their degree of religiousness/patriarchy conditioning. Like my mom was engaged to a man before my dad, who had told her she would need to cut her university education short and stay at home. It didn't work out, but she met my dad who told her to finish university and even encouraged my mom to do her Masters education here in Canada. She is a hijabi woman and is a public servant, works in the federal government here.

So it has to be some form of government that reflects their culture and finds its own roots organically, whether it gets bloody and progresses or whatever. Isn't that what happened to our Western governments?

 

[DLF]

 

[friscostylez]

I wonder if our country ever did this

 

[DLF]

 

[seasoned vet]

My family was persecuted in Baghdad back in the late 1800s. They left. Then in the 1900s they were persecuted in Soviet Russia. My great grandfather was literally executed in front of the family for practicing our religion. We ended up leaving again.

Instead of constant warfare, persecution, and oppression sometimes it's better to leave when you get the chance.

When your life and your children's lives are on the line, no one cares that generations of our family lived in a certain area.

!!!!!!!!

THIS.

more of this please!

 

[John Wick]

 

[wballz]

I'm surprised Zuckerberg is still letting pro Palestine posts in FB and Insta.

 

[DripNick]

"not evil"

 

[DripNick]

 

[me love nutella]

"not evil"

Meanwhile...




Ya, between Hamas and the IDF, Hamas is really being smarter with their PR and treatment of hostages, while Israel carpet bombs Gaza and the IDF and settlers continue to kidnap Palestinians in the West Bank and torture them.

This hostage is even blaming Netanyahu.

 

[getback]

I didn't realize Stockholm Syndrome kicked in that quick.

 

[lovehateself]

waiting for someone to say she was a planted actress and this is a false flag

 

[Public Enemy]

Revisiting Yeshayahu Leibowitz - JSTOR Daily

The late Israeli thinker spoke of the occupation's moral cost for both sides of the conflict. A philosopher considers how his nuanced arguments hold up in 2023.

daily.jstor.org

Editor’s Note: This essay was acquired in July 2023 and was not written in response to Hamas’s attack on Israel. It nevertheless provides useful historical context to current events.

 

[me love nutella]

I didn't realize Stockholm Syndrome kicked in that quick.

I don't think they have an affinity or attachment to their captors. They are happy they're back home safe and sound.

She was just describing her experience of how they were treated. The other American hostages, the mom and daughter pair, also said they were treated humanely.

Then again, the kidnapping itself is not humane.

Also, if you listened, you'd hear that they were hidden in their underground tunnels. So that's a dilemma for Netanyahu that's carpet bombing Gaza when Hamas and their main leaders are underground with the captives.

What's the strategy to get them back?