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Seriously I dont get how people like John Hollinger get paid and have a job with ESPN.
But hey they know people still will click on his link's.
Is Kobe is still exciting to watch?
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by letitshine24,
- Start date
Seriously I dont get how people like John Hollinger get paid and have a job with ESPN.
But hey they know people still will click on his link's.
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its crazy that the warriors scored 11 pts in 43 seconds.
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its crazy that the warriors scored 11 pts in 43 seconds.
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I don't think that's true at all. There are some players that let the moment get to them and start pressing. Others aren't fazed and play like it's any other moment, and others seem to elevate their play another notch. If players perform to their usual level in any given situation, how do you explain players like A-Rod who for years hit much worse in the postseason? Or guys whose batting average dips with runners in scoring position? Different players have completely different mental makeups/attitudes; you can't assume that because a player shoots 45% for their career that they will also shoot that percentage in the clutch. They might, but if they are one of those players who get nervous and starts pressing they might shoot 30%.
Bottom line, a player that is "clutch" wants the ball and has the desire and ability to make plays towards the end of the game. I don't need to tabulate anything to identify those players; my eyes do a pretty good job of that.
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I don't think that's true at all. There are some players that let the moment get to them and start pressing. Others aren't fazed and play like it's any other moment, and others seem to elevate their play another notch. If players perform to their usual level in any given situation, how do you explain players like A-Rod who for years hit much worse in the postseason? Or guys whose batting average dips with runners in scoring position? Different players have completely different mental makeups/attitudes; you can't assume that because a player shoots 45% for their career that they will also shoot that percentage in the clutch. They might, but if they are one of those players who get nervous and starts pressing they might shoot 30%.
Bottom line, a player that is "clutch" wants the ball and has the desire and ability to make plays towards the end of the game. I don't need to tabulate anything to identify those players; my eyes do a pretty good job of that.
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looked pretty exciting in clip on sportscenter this morning
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looked pretty exciting in clip on sportscenter this morning
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Someone wasn't reading what I said about the importance of sample size earlier.
When you take many seasons of "clutch statistics", you see that players pretty much perform to the mean over time. So while the psychological factor of the clutch might be present, the highly-trained athlete who has spent a lifetime honing his craft can overcome this factor. The issue however is that a player takes a mere handful of those shots "in the clutch" compared to the thousands of shots they take during a season. When he makes them, you and I as a fan naturally get excited and attribute it to some "special" ability to play better in a particular moment. Perception bias also takes effect (thanks to SportsCenter playing those crazy turnaround shots a billion times) and you don't remember that the same player has missed that same shot in other games more times than he has made them; see Kobe's "clutch" numbers by people who actually track these things. When Kobe is a mere 30% something shooter in game winning shot situations, and other players who are not as good as Kobe make nearly as many (or even more) shots in less attempts, watch the homer fans on BOTH sides argue about Kobe as either being the greatest clutch shooter or someone who shouldn't be allowed to touch the ball in tight games.
I just say that they need to keep things in perspective. YES Kobe should get the ball. But not for the same reason his fans think he should. Your eyes don't lie. But your mind isn't perfect, doesn't remember everything, and can be subject to all kinds of biases - that why we go out and measure things.
Also, CP - I'm pretty sure when someone suggests someone is "clutch", it's not just chucking up the ball a TON and making enough shots to put in a highlight reel. They want to mean that the player ACTUALLY "raises his game" (you hear this cliche all the time) or performs better than he usually does or other players do "in the moment". It's why Kobe fans go out of their way to prop up Kobe as "the best clutch shooter". It's also funny to watch them backpedal and say "Stats don't matter!" when the "clutch" numbers actually show that he not only plays to HIS usual level, he also doesn't play as well as some other players who make as many shots with less attempts. You can't have it both ways.
@ DontStepOnMyShoes - Grow up.
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Someone wasn't reading what I said about the importance of sample size earlier.
When you take many seasons of "clutch statistics", you see that players pretty much perform to the mean over time. So while the psychological factor of the clutch might be present, the highly-trained athlete who has spent a lifetime honing his craft can overcome this factor. The issue however is that a player takes a mere handful of those shots "in the clutch" compared to the thousands of shots they take during a season. When he makes them, you and I as a fan naturally get excited and attribute it to some "special" ability to play better in a particular moment. Perception bias also takes effect (thanks to SportsCenter playing those crazy turnaround shots a billion times) and you don't remember that the same player has missed that same shot in other games more times than he has made them; see Kobe's "clutch" numbers by people who actually track these things. When Kobe is a mere 30% something shooter in game winning shot situations, and other players who are not as good as Kobe make nearly as many (or even more) shots in less attempts, watch the homer fans on BOTH sides argue about Kobe as either being the greatest clutch shooter or someone who shouldn't be allowed to touch the ball in tight games.
I just say that they need to keep things in perspective. YES Kobe should get the ball. But not for the same reason his fans think he should. Your eyes don't lie. But your mind isn't perfect, doesn't remember everything, and can be subject to all kinds of biases - that why we go out and measure things.
Also, CP - I'm pretty sure when someone suggests someone is "clutch", it's not just chucking up the ball a TON and making enough shots to put in a highlight reel. They want to mean that the player ACTUALLY "raises his game" (you hear this cliche all the time) or performs better than he usually does or other players do "in the moment". It's why Kobe fans go out of their way to prop up Kobe as "the best clutch shooter". It's also funny to watch them backpedal and say "Stats don't matter!" when the "clutch" numbers actually show that he not only plays to HIS usual level, he also doesn't play as well as some other players who make as many shots with less attempts. You can't have it both ways.
@ DontStepOnMyShoes - Grow up.
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I think you're taking too much of a mathematically approach to sports. Not everything can be a metric. Clutch is something that can be intangible. Look at it out the context of sports. Aren't there times where you are nervous? Perhaps for a new job interview. Some people's nerves get to the best of them and buckle under pressure.Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight
Someone wasn't reading what I said about the importance of sample size earlier.
When you take many seasons of "clutch statistics", you see that players pretty much perform to the mean over time. So while the psychological factor of the clutch might be present, the highly-trained athlete who has spent a lifetime honing his craft can overcome this factor. The issue however is that a player takes a mere handful of those shots "in the clutch" compared to the thousands of shots they take during a season. When he makes them, you and I as a fan naturally get excited and attribute it to some "special" ability to play better in a particular moment. Perception bias also takes effect (thanks to SportsCenter playing those crazy turnaround shots a billion times) and you don't remember that the same player has missed that same shot in other games more times than he has made them; see Kobe's "clutch" numbers by people who actually track these things. When Kobe is a mere 30% something shooter in game winning shot situations, and other players who are not as good as Kobe make nearly as many (or even more) shots in less attempts, watch the homer fans on BOTH sides argue about Kobe as either being the greatest clutch shooter or someone who shouldn't be allowed to touch the ball in tight games.
I just say that they need to keep things in perspective. YES Kobe should get the ball. But not for the same reason his fans think he should. Your eyes don't lie. But your mind isn't perfect, doesn't remember everything, and can be subject to all kinds of biases - that why we go out and measure things.
Also, CP - I'm pretty sure when someone suggests someone is "clutch", it's not just chucking up the ball a TON and making enough shots to put in a highlight reel. They want to mean that the player ACTUALLY "raises his game" (you hear this cliche all the time) or performs better than he usually does or other players do "in the moment". It's why Kobe fans go out of their way to prop up Kobe as "the best clutch shooter". It's also funny to watch them backpedal and say "Stats don't matter!" when the "clutch" numbers actually show that he not only plays to HIS usual level, he also doesn't play as well as some other players who make as many shots with less attempts. You can't have it both ways.
@ DontStepOnMyShoes - Grow up.
Chris Webber was called out his entire career for disappearing in the 4th quarter and during his King's stint was often criticize for not wanting to guard Shaq. Some seize the moment, some let the moment seize them.
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I think you're taking too much of a mathematically approach to sports. Not everything can be a metric. Clutch is something that can be intangible. Look at it out the context of sports. Aren't there times where you are nervous? Perhaps for a new job interview. Some people's nerves get to the best of them and buckle under pressure.Originally Posted by LuketheJediKnight
Someone wasn't reading what I said about the importance of sample size earlier.
When you take many seasons of "clutch statistics", you see that players pretty much perform to the mean over time. So while the psychological factor of the clutch might be present, the highly-trained athlete who has spent a lifetime honing his craft can overcome this factor. The issue however is that a player takes a mere handful of those shots "in the clutch" compared to the thousands of shots they take during a season. When he makes them, you and I as a fan naturally get excited and attribute it to some "special" ability to play better in a particular moment. Perception bias also takes effect (thanks to SportsCenter playing those crazy turnaround shots a billion times) and you don't remember that the same player has missed that same shot in other games more times than he has made them; see Kobe's "clutch" numbers by people who actually track these things. When Kobe is a mere 30% something shooter in game winning shot situations, and other players who are not as good as Kobe make nearly as many (or even more) shots in less attempts, watch the homer fans on BOTH sides argue about Kobe as either being the greatest clutch shooter or someone who shouldn't be allowed to touch the ball in tight games.
I just say that they need to keep things in perspective. YES Kobe should get the ball. But not for the same reason his fans think he should. Your eyes don't lie. But your mind isn't perfect, doesn't remember everything, and can be subject to all kinds of biases - that why we go out and measure things.
Also, CP - I'm pretty sure when someone suggests someone is "clutch", it's not just chucking up the ball a TON and making enough shots to put in a highlight reel. They want to mean that the player ACTUALLY "raises his game" (you hear this cliche all the time) or performs better than he usually does or other players do "in the moment". It's why Kobe fans go out of their way to prop up Kobe as "the best clutch shooter". It's also funny to watch them backpedal and say "Stats don't matter!" when the "clutch" numbers actually show that he not only plays to HIS usual level, he also doesn't play as well as some other players who make as many shots with less attempts. You can't have it both ways.
@ DontStepOnMyShoes - Grow up.
Chris Webber was called out his entire career for disappearing in the 4th quarter and during his King's stint was often criticize for not wanting to guard Shaq. Some seize the moment, some let the moment seize them.
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--We have a resident Hollinger in the house.
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--We have a resident Hollinger in the house.
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Learn to make an argument, not just post bulletpoints with degenerative insults. Thanks.
Sure. That's why as I have said time and time again, I'm not denying the psychological factor of "clutch". The thing however is that these guys train themselves for a lifetime to employ the skills of playing basketball. When you shoot more and more, that factor isn't as important and your usual baseline skill takes over. Same for the mediocre players like Travis Outlaw that got lucky in the cltuch and started off 6-7 with game-winning shots.
Not there's the importance of shot-creation which is an important skill of itself, but from people that actually look at these things, there's no great "jump" in performance for many players that people think there is. LeBron has actually been a player that has played beyond his usual production in the "clutch" (and yes Lakers fans, some here will surely bring up the "ring count" and Game 5 against Boston to argue otherwise, but winning/losing games that brings team performance into account), but is it necessarily because he's able to "tun it on whenever he wants"? Once again you have dubious sample sizes here. You can't make a conclusion when you don't have enough info.
And by the way, I point to the third paragraph of my previous post to answer your sentences in bold.
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Learn to make an argument, not just post bulletpoints with degenerative insults. Thanks.
Sure. That's why as I have said time and time again, I'm not denying the psychological factor of "clutch". The thing however is that these guys train themselves for a lifetime to employ the skills of playing basketball. When you shoot more and more, that factor isn't as important and your usual baseline skill takes over. Same for the mediocre players like Travis Outlaw that got lucky in the cltuch and started off 6-7 with game-winning shots.
Not there's the importance of shot-creation which is an important skill of itself, but from people that actually look at these things, there's no great "jump" in performance for many players that people think there is. LeBron has actually been a player that has played beyond his usual production in the "clutch" (and yes Lakers fans, some here will surely bring up the "ring count" and Game 5 against Boston to argue otherwise, but winning/losing games that brings team performance into account), but is it necessarily because he's able to "tun it on whenever he wants"? Once again you have dubious sample sizes here. You can't make a conclusion when you don't have enough info.
And by the way, I point to the third paragraph of my previous post to answer your sentences in bold.
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^it wasnt an insult. Just an observation.Take it easy.
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^it wasnt an insult. Just an observation.Take it easy.
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If you say so. I've seen it used as an insult everywhere else.Originally Posted by DARTH DNZY
^it wasnt an insult. Just an observation.Take it easy.
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If you say so. I've seen it used as an insult everywhere else.Originally Posted by DARTH DNZY
^it wasnt an insult. Just an observation.Take it easy.
dontsteponmyshoes
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LuketheJediKnight wrote:
@ DontStepOnMyShoes - Grow up.
enh Im cool. Sports is still one thing in life I can enjoy without taking too serious, it is a game after all. If I wanted to watch Mathletes I would, I dont need a sports almanac or a whole bunch of useless stats to enjoy basketball so yeah...
dontsteponmyshoes
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LuketheJediKnight wrote:
@ DontStepOnMyShoes - Grow up.
enh Im cool. Sports is still one thing in life I can enjoy without taking too serious, it is a game after all. If I wanted to watch Mathletes I would, I dont need a sports almanac or a whole bunch of useless stats to enjoy basketball so yeah...
