Half Of America Makes Less Than $27,520 A Year And 15 Other Signs The Middle Class Is Dying

[americangenius]

Never understood why I should feel bad about people getting college debt when most low income people qualify for financial aid large enough for public universities. Maybe going to an expensive private university doesn't make sense if you/your family can't afford it?

I do agree that elementary education needs reform. Schools are a joke in most of the districts in this country.

 

[trynafeelmink]

Gonna marry a chick who has her **** together as much as I do and flourish as a family unit. Travel the world together until my early-mid 30s then maybe have a kid or two when I can afford to give them they life I want to give them.

I honestly feel one of America's biggest problems is that poor people and unmarried people seem to be having the most children. I do not live in the greatest neighborhood and I'm shocked at all these little kids running around everywhere. Like 5 in a household similar to mine and my house isn't nice or big by any means. I would like to see statistics on household income/children ratio. I bet it'd be the opposite of what you think. People out here having kids they can't afford, in dysfunctional families, reaping child support and not using on the kid. Then the kids aren't raised right, grow up and don't have any education, jobs, or skills. Angry at the world. Messed up.

I'm not saying we adopt China's one-child policy but I feel like something needs to be done. Any one else find this concerning?

I do find it concerning and a problem however rather then simply blaming the families, i sit back and look at the systematic factors that have made this kind of situation a habit in poor neighborhoods.

so yes it's a lack of responsibility on the parents part, many people will blindly point to that rather than all of the factors that contribute to that.

1) Lack of schooling & lack of financial education
2) A shortage of opportunities & job growth in these neighborhoods, along with shortages in recreational activities
3) Much stricter laws & policing on the poor leading to more men in jail = dysfunctional families
4) A SEVERE lack of education in health leading to disease & sickness in the community
5) The complete destruction of the family structure in poor neighborhoods.

All of these are correlated with eachother and lend hand in why families continue to grow beyond their means.

 

[trynafeelmink]

Never understood why I should feel bad about people getting college debt when most low income people qualify for financial aid large enough for public universities. Maybe going to an expensive private university doesn't make sense if you/your family can't afford it?

I do agree that elementary education needs reform. Schools are a joke in most of the districts in this country.

rollin

You legitimately have to be making PENNIES to get financial Aid these days, I could almost guarantee that if your even making this yearly estimated wage of 27k that financial aid may pay about 1/3 rd of the bill, which is appreciated but not so much when tuition continues to grow by the year.

I've never been an advocate for putting yourself into debt, but i also see why someone will go to the university that cost 25k a year rather then the public institution for 10k, because just like everything else in this country the $ counts. That degree from the more expensive school is going to get more looks than the degree from the public institution despite the degree not having a bearing on how capable someone is to do the job.

 

[hennessy]

I do find it concerning and a problem however rather then simply blaming the families, i sit back and look at the systematic factors that have made this kind of situation a habit in poor neighborhoods.

so yes it's a lack of responsibility on the parents part, many people will blindly point to that rather than all of the factors that contribute to that.

1) Lack of schooling & lack of financial education
2) A shortage of opportunities & job growth in these neighborhoods, along with shortages in recreational activities
3) Much stricter laws & policing on the poor leading to more men in jail = dysfunctional families
4) A SEVERE lack of education in health leading to disease & sickness in the community
5) The complete destruction of the family structure in poor neighborhoods.

All of these are correlated with eachother and lend hand in why families continue to grow beyond their means.

Yeah I was thinking about schooling to fix it. Sex ed is already a taboo subject. When do you teach it? How do you teach it? A lot of parents aren't comfortable with someone else teaching their kid about that stuff. It's a sensitive topic.

I think the problem is honestly some immigrant families who are first or second generation, non-english speaking, do not know the ramifications behind having kids in America. Like I'll give you a real life example: My aunt has her doctorate and provides leadership for initiatives for Career and College Readiness. She works for the State Department of Education. I was telling her about all these low-income families with all these kids in my neighborhood. Then she told me a story about a spanish girl who had just gotten accepted into Cornell on a full ride academic scholarship, her mom had never heard of it and insisted she stayed home to join her working cleaning jobs. This just blew my mind. Like you raised your daughter to help you clean houses when she came of age? That was her promise? Meanwhile you have no idea what getting a full ride to an Ivy league school means? (She ended up going to Cornell thankfully) I mean the mom wanted the daughter home to help bring more money into their family immediately. Didn't consider how much she'd be making long term with that degree. And she was depending on her to come back and contribute to the household income instead of raising her and sending her off to be independent. Maybe it's just a cultural difference (word to ninjahood) So there is this lack of education on what's important with parents, and lack of education on family planning/safe sex with kids, etc...

I agree it's a very complex issue but bottom line is that more kids being born = more competition for jobs in the future. More people are going to college than ever before but there is no real promise for jobs once they graduate. I just see it getting worse before it gets better honestly. Too much old thinking and competition amongst a huge population of self-entitled graduates.

Something needs to be reformed.

 

[jamie dimon]

I've never been an advocate for putting yourself into debt, but i also see why someone will go to the university that cost 25k a year rather then the public institution for 10k, because just like everything else in this country the $ counts. That degree from the more expensive school is going to get more looks than the degree from the public institution despite the degree not having a bearing on how capable someone is to do the job.

that's def not true. It all depends on school/major etc

There are plenty of private schools that are ~50k/year and the school wouldnt even be considered good

 

[americangenius]

rollin

You legitimately have to be making PENNIES to get financial Aid these days, I could almost guarantee that if your even making this yearly estimated wage of 27k that financial aid may pay about 1/3 rd of the bill, which is appreciated but not so much when tuition continues to grow by the year.

I've never been an advocate for putting yourself into debt, but i also see why someone will go to the university that cost 25k a year rather then the public institution for 10k, because just like everything else in this country the $ counts. That degree from the more expensive school is going to get more looks than the degree from the public institution despite the degree not having a bearing on how capable someone is to do the job.

Let's be real. Many of these private schools have very little recognition outside of ivy-league etc. In NYC the city university is less than 5k per year, and many of the people I know had more than half covered. If you make less than 40k you qualify for Pell grants, TAP etc that will pay more than 2500 per year. Some of these schools are rated quite highly, Baruch and Queens College as an example. Is it better than NYU? Maybe not, but it beats owing 120k when you're done with school.

Edit- here is a link showing the average recipient of the Pell Grant( which is only one grant of a few you can receive)

http://www.ohe.state.mn.us/mPg.cfm?pageID=139

Most people who make around 30k or less qualify( more than half of america and most single parent homes). Average grant is around 3,700 per year.

 

[trynafeelmink]

Let's be real. Many of these private schools have very little recognition outside of ivy-league etc. In NYC the city university is less than 5k per year, and many of the people I know had more than half covered. If you make less than 40k you qualify for Pell grants, TAP etc that will pay more than 2500 per year. Some of these schools are rated quite highly, Baruch and Queens College as an example. Is it better than NYU? Maybe not, but it beats owing 120k when you're done with school.

I attend a Cuny so i know what your talking about, but no a cuny degree isn't going to hold credence to most Private institutions, obviously that's all depends on the student. However let's not act like out of state "big name" schools aren't promoted or deemed more important in society than smaller public universities.

And even those public universities can be upwards of 10K a year which may not be as significant and drowning as owing six figures but 20-40k in debt isn't exactly "good" either.

 

[4318michaeljohnson4318]

Never understood why I should feel bad about people getting college debt when most low income people qualify for financial aid large enough for public universities. Maybe going to an expensive private university doesn't make sense if you/your family can't afford it?

I do agree that elementary education needs reform. Schools are a joke in most of the districts in this country.

Some private institutions like ITT Tech, Devery, Keiser, Everest prey on low income, low knowledge students and sign them up for loans most of the times students have no idea what they are signing and how much schools cost. For profit insitutions make up a large chunk of student debt.

The regulations are likely to fall the hardest on for-profit colleges, which on average cost nearly twice as much as comparable two-year and four-year public colleges and leave students with much more debt. Only about 13 percent of students attend for-profit schools, yet the sector is responsible for nearly half of all student loan defaults.

I was watching CSPAN over the weekend with the discussion about student debt. One senator I believe suggested expanding financial aid to work for certification programs (i.e. IT certs) as an alternative education that would be cheaper for the financial aid system and students in general.

 

[trynafeelmink]

Yeah I was thinking about schooling to fix it. Sex ed is already a taboo subject. When do you teach it? How do you teach it? A lot of parents aren't comfortable with someone else teaching their kid about that stuff. It's a sensitive topic.

I think the problem is honestly some immigrant families who are first or second generation, non-english speaking, do not know the ramifications behind having kids in America. Like I'll give you a real life example: My aunt has her doctorate and provides leadership for initiatives for Career and College Readiness. She works for the State Department of Education. I was telling her about all these low-income families with all these kids in my neighborhood. Then she told me a story about a spanish girl who had just gotten accepted into Cornell on a full ride academic scholarship, her mom had never heard of it and insisted she stayed home to join her working cleaning jobs. This just blew my mind. Like you raised your daughter to help you clean houses when she came of age? That was her promise? Meanwhile you have no idea what getting a full ride to an Ivy league school means? (She ended up going to Cornell thankfully) I mean the mom wanted the daughter home to help bring more money into their family immediately. Didn't consider how much she'd be making long term with that degree. And she was depending on her to come back and contribute to the household income instead of raising her and sending her off to be independent. Maybe it's just a cultural difference (word to ninjahood) So there is this lack of education on what's important with parents, and lack of education on family planning/safe sex with kids, etc...

I agree it's a very complex issue but bottom line is that more kids being born = more competition for jobs in the future. More people are going to college than ever before but there is no real promise for jobs once they graduate. I just see it getting worse before it gets better honestly. Too much old thinking and competition amongst a huge population of self-entitled graduates.

Something needs to be reformed.

Yea i also think culture has a huge impact also because like you said a lot of these people are coming from cultures where there is never a lack of work because there has always been manual labor to do and they usually start at a young age so in certain cultures the more kids= the more money and better chance to uplift yourself. However it's a shell shock when your in america and suddenly that ideal doesn't quite fit the same thanks to the cost of living and much more crowded job market.

 

[americangenius]

Some private institutions like ITT Tech, Devery, Keiser, Everest prey on low income, low knowledge students and sign them up for loans most of the times students have no idea what they are signing and how much schools cost. For profit insitutions make up a large chunk of student debt.
I was watching CSPAN over the weekend with the discussion about student debt. One senator I believe suggested expanding financial aid to work for certification programs (i.e. IT certs) as an alternative education that would be cheaper for the financial aid system and students in general.

You're 100% right, these schools are killer. The ads are played non stop during daytime to target people who are unemployed and usually aren't qualified to attend better schools. I've heard people pay in excess of 18k/yr for some of these for-profit places and learn absolutely nothing.

 

[ajiiiplatinum]

Obama is garbage

Nothin changed
In fact things got worse

Truth is with a GOP like Romney thinks would have been worse. His buddies Reagan and Bush I and Bush II had the biggest hand in all this mess.

 

[americangenius]

I attend a Cuny so i know what your talking about, but no a cuny degree isn't going to hold credence to most Private institutions, obviously that's all depends on the student. However let's not act like out of state "big name" schools aren't promoted or deemed more important in society than smaller public universities.

And even those public universities can be upwards of 10K a year which may not be as significant and drowning as owing six figures but 20-40k in debt isn't exactly "good" either.

I disagree as many public universities beat these private schools. Not everyone is going to Harvard and Yale. Some people are paying 40k a year for St Johns, Hofstra, and Pace University.

20k in debt is about 300 a month in payments. That isn't that bad considering your income potential has greatly increased. When you are dealing with 6 figure debt, it's almost impossible to climb out of.

I think we all agree in this thread there are multiple factors responsible for an unskilled workforce. I believe apprenticeship programs would be key in getting unemployed people a shot at getting a decent job while building skills that are in demand. Too much value is placed on degrees that don't prepare people for what they need to thrive, create, innovate, and succeed.

 

[americangenius]

For the record, this is a great thread. Real discussion with almost no ******** and no trolls.

 

[trynafeelmink]

I disagree as many public universities beat these private schools. Not everyone is going to Harvard and Yale. Some people are paying 40k a year for St Johns, Hofstra, and Pace University.

20k in debt is about 300 a month in payments. That isn't that bad considering your income potential has greatly increased. When you are dealing with 6 figure debt, it's almost impossible to climb out of.

I think we all agree in this thread there are multiple factors responsible for an unskilled workforce. I believe apprenticeship programs would be key in getting unemployed people a shot at getting a decent job while building skills that are in demand. Too much value is placed on degrees that don't prepare people for what they need to thrive, create, innovate, and succeed.

This i agree with 100%

 

[hennessy]

This i agree with 100%

Back to education...

We need to sit down and have career planning with high school grads BEFORE they decide to go to college. Actually, this needs to happen in sophomore yeah of high school or something. There should be mandatory classes as a high school sophomore where you learn about the career you want, costs of college, current job market, if you can get the financial aid for where you want to go, etc... and all of this needs to be weighed and measured against the alternative of learning a trade, foregoing college, etc... This course should be MANDATORY before going to college so kids, yeah, KIDS can at least have an idea of what they're getting into. I also think that the kids parents should come in for a session with their kids and the instructor to seriously talk about this. Because apparently, as I've learned, some parents have no clue what going to college can mean for their kids.

People need to stop telling kids, "go to college" after they graduate. Need to stop telling them to start applying to all these universities as juniors in high school when they don't even know how or if they can pay to go to them. Nah, we need to be telling them, "stop and think, let's have a discussion here, is college the right course for you?" Then the ones who decide not to go to college can enter the work force sooner and contribute to the economy, earn some money, stimulate things instead of just accruing debt for 4 years and graduating jobless.

 

[linus vp]

I don't think a lot of young people (or their parents for that matter) really have a firm understanding as to how loans/interest rates work or think about monthly payments post-college. I know more than a handful of people that were taking out $100k+ not thinking about actual income after college or that they'd owe $1000 or more per month. Their parents would say "he/she'll get a good job no problem!". Even with a "good" job, that's quite a burden. 

 

[mrdozo]

Back to education...

We need to sit down and have career planning with high school grads BEFORE they decide to go to college. Actually, this needs to happen in sophomore yeah of high school or something. There should be mandatory classes as a high school sophomore where you learn about the career you want, costs of college, current job market, if you can get the financial aid for where you want to go, etc... and all of this needs to be weighed and measured against the alternative of learning a trade, foregoing college, etc... This course should be MANDATORY before going to college so kids, yeah, KIDS can at least have an idea of what they're getting into. I also think that the kids parents should come in for a session with their kids and the instructor to seriously talk about this. Because apparently, as I've learned, some parents have no clue what going to college can mean for their kids.

People need to stop telling kids, "go to college" after they graduate. Need to stop telling them to start applying to all these universities as juniors in high school when they don't even know how or if they can pay to go to them. Nah, we need to be telling them, "stop and think, let's have a discussion here, is college the right course for you?" Then the ones who decide not to go to college can enter the work force sooner and contribute to the economy, earn some money, stimulate things instead of just accruing debt for 4 years and graduating jobless.

yes
reppd
I've been saying this for years. Most high schools just tell you "go to college". They dont prepare you for a job/career. Go to college and study what? To be what? And earn what?

 

[rico x hood]

You know what i find amusing going through this thread is that people are complaining of the poor being complacent and not wanting to "Fight" to better their situations, yet those same people in the very next sentence, will agree that government & big business is using a system that clearly doesn't benefit the public & countering with the excuse of "We know the government is corrupt but you have to work around it". Showing that they are completely complacent and lack the ability to try and change a government that is clearly unbalanced.


How can you sit there in the face of injustice which clearly effects you & those around you and say oh well the government is messed up, as if the people don't have the power to make changes in the government, but of course that would take into account viewing different aspects, monitoring the majority, and critical thinking which as i witness everyday is becoming less and less promoted.

You should have just @ me. Anyway, your pretty much lying at this point. When we had our back and forth yesterday you were the one that bought up government regulations making it harder for people to reach the next class. I said, well get around them. Almost every law has loopholes built in just to ease the effect of the law. But somehow you drew your own conclusion from words I never said. An honestly, look back at what you said, "government regulations making it harder to reach the next class" last time I checked hard didn't mean difficult. That statement right there tells me all I need to know about where your mind is at, you want things to be easy, and if it isn't you'll just complain about how it's not fair.

That's why I left this thread that stench of helplessness in all of comments in here is suffocating.

An now I see that people are championing the idea of not getting a degree, "enter workforce early, make money, stimulate the economy" and you know what's going to happen to those people if they stay on that trajectory? In 15-20 years they're going to hit that lifetime earning potential, and it's going to be peanuts. An then they will be the same ones complaining about how life isn't fair and they wish they had more opportunities when they were younger. And really are you guys going to schools like Everest and ITT Tech for preying on "low knowledge" people? Really? Those people are adults they make their own decisions, no one put a gun to their hand and made them sigh that dotted line. Nobody told them to not read and analyze the loan package. An if you don't understand something, then you ask. The fault is all theirs. An on the subject off loan debt and no being able to find a job, someone said earlier in this thread you have to pick the right major, something that is clearly profitable and worth the debt you accrue. It all has do with properly planning your life, research careers that your major can transfer to. Find out what the cap is on that income with a bachelors, masters, Ph.D. How much debt will you be in by the time you graduate? All these answers are out there and don't have to be thrust upon you at the last moment. But many people don't do it, for whatever reason, and when they get blindsided they call foul and blame others.

It's all about taking full responsibility for everything you do, because nobody else will. Ignorance has never been a valid excuse for anything.

 

[trynafeelmink]

You should have just @ me. Anyway, your pretty much lying at this point. When we had our back and forth yesterday you were the one that bought up government regulations making it harder for people to reach the next class. I said, well get around them. Almost every law has loopholes built in just to ease the effect of the law. But somehow you drew your own conclusion from words I never said. An honestly, look back at what you said, "government regulations making it harder to reach the next class" last time I checked hard didn't mean difficult. That statement right there tells me all I need to know about where your mind is at, you want things to be easy, and if it isn't you'll just complain about how it's not fair.

That's why I left this thread that stench of helplessness in all of comments in here is suffocating.

An now I see that people are championing the idea of not getting a degree, "enter workforce early, make money, stimulate the economy" and you know what's going to happen to those people if they stay on that trajectory? In 15-20 years they're going to hit that lifetime earning potential, and it's going to be peanuts. An then they will be the same ones complaining about how life isn't fair and they wish they had more opportunities when they were younger. And really are you guys going to schools like Everest and ITT Tech for preying on "low knowledge" people? Really? Those people are adults they make their own decisions, no one put a gun to their hand and made them sigh that dotted line. Nobody told them to not read and analyze the loan package. An if you don't understand something, then you ask. The fault is all theirs. An on the subject off loan debt and no being able to find a job, someone said earlier in this thread you have to pick the right major, something that is clearly profitable and worth the debt you accrue. It all has do with properly planning your life, research careers that your major can transfer to. Find out what the cap is on that income with a bachelors, masters, Ph.D. How much debt will you be in by the time you graduate? All these answers are out there and don't have to be thrust upon you at the last moment. But many people don't do it, for whatever reason, and when they get blindsided they call foul and blame others.

It's all about taking full responsibility for everything you do, because nobody else will. Ignorance has never been a valid excuse for anything.

you just wrote all of this up assuming i was talking to you... when it really isn't about you this is about those advocating that people can just jump around "loopholes" in the law (what the **** does that even pertain too) despite all factual statistics negating that.

I am making up lies that there are regulations, laws & systematic structures that leave the poor at a much less even playing field... despite all FACTUAL statistics saying the complete opposite? Hard doesn't mean difficult?

for a Poli Sci major your really Lacking in the comprehension department, People aren't championing not going to college or not doing research, They are clearly advocating for school & government (You know the government that's suppose to be working for the betterment of it's people) to actually get people more knowledgeable with student loans, Majors & career paths.

That would make a huge adjustment in people spending 100K on a career with no trajectory & get them to invest in trade schools and picking up skills that would actually be viable in the workforce & give people a chance to expand their minds and become innovative in order to create lanes for themselves and others, rather than telling everyone to invest in a system that will leave you in debt and actually capped out in the workforce.

and why'll your hear making judgements on my mindset, i would you know my mindset has me about to graduate with a degree in poli sci & currently interning for my city's council.

With your insight thus far i would hope you stay as far away from government as possible

 

[trynafeelmink]

double

 

[airuphere23]

Truth is with a GOP like Romney thinks would have been worse. His buddies Reagan and Bush I and Bush II had the biggest hand in all this mess.

Yeah and Obama's been in office for over 5 years now and hasn't done a damn thing to get us out of that "mess".

Obama is much more interested in being a celebrity President, cracking jokes, and smiling on camera, than taking care of American issues in this country...and this is coming from a person who hates the GOP.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

My man was telling me that he learned in his wealth and power class that the idea of a middle class was a way to divide humans. WHen you compare what the elite have and compare it to what the non-elite have, there is no way that what people in the "middle class" have is really MIDDLE class. They are just higher extentions of the poor. That would be like me having $500 and another person has $10 and I call them "middle class" because they have more than the person with the least amount of money.

 

[trynafeelmink]

My man was telling me that he learned in his wealth and power class that the idea of a middle class was a way to divide humans. WHen you compare what the elite have and compare it to what the non-elite have, there is no way that what people in the "middle class" have is really MIDDLE class. They are just higher extentions of the poor. That would be like me having $500 and another person has $10 and I call them "middle class" because they have more than the person with the least amount of money.

Very relevant.

Hell just in this thread alone you can see how that distinction between middle class/ lower class can create dysfunction between the people. The Rich are smart, they know if Americans were ever able to band together they would probably be done. so instead give one man a smaller elevated status and create disdain btwn the two, make them seem like they have a huge difference in lifestyle, 7 while their busy bickering and arguing amongst each other the rich are cutting deals to control both to their liking.

Everything from Race, Religion, Social Rank, Sexuality are all maintained and promoted the same & the one constant in it all is that the people on top keep complete control.

 

[rico x hood]

you just wrote all of this up assuming i was talking to you... when it really isn't about you this is about those advocating that people can just jump around "loopholes" in the law (what the **** does that even pertain too) despite all factual statistics negating that.

I am making up lies that there are regulations, laws & systematic structures that leave the poor at a much less even playing field... despite all FACTUAL statistics saying the complete opposite? Hard doesn't mean difficult?

for a Poli Sci major your really Lacking in the comprehension department, People aren't championing not going to college or not doing research, They are clearly advocating for school & government (You know the government that's suppose to be working for the betterment of it's people) to actually get people more knowledgeable with student loans, Majors & career paths.

That would make a huge adjustment in people spending 100K on a career with no trajectory & get them to invest in trade schools and picking up skills that would actually be viable in the workforce & give people a chance to expand their minds and become innovative in order to create lanes for themselves and others, rather than telling everyone to invest in a system that will leave you in debt and actually capped out in the workforce.

and why'll your hear making judgements on my mindset, i would you know my mindset has me about to graduate with a degree in poli sci & currently interning for my city's council.

With your insight thus far i would hope you stay as far away from government as possible

I had a whole long response typed up and then I saw your second to last paragraph. You're a soon to graduate college student. Good luck with the rest of your studies and I hope your internship goes well and leads to a fruitful career.

 

[trynafeelmink]

I had a whole long response typed up and then I saw your second to last paragraph. You're a soon to graduate college student. Good luck with the rest of your studies and I hope your internship goes well and leads to a fruitful career.

all appreciated and i wish you the best in your respective career