Grey market discussion thread (Let's keep the discussion mature) Rules on pg 1 please read before yo

[rcjbbp1313]

This is your personal choice, which is perfectly fine.

The point I am making is that people should be aware if they are being sold an unauthorized pair.  If we just call them all authentic, how do we tell them apart?  Then we end up with a resell market full of them, which is beginning to be the case.  You might be ok with buying an unauthorized pair, but lots of people buying them assume they were authorized to be produced by Nike and would not be happy to find out they weren't.  Not everybody is aware that unauthorized pairs are even out there.

If you go FL and the only shoe left in your size is the display shoe.  The store isn't just going to sell you the shoe without letting you know it was the display shoe.  Same thing should apply for unauthorized pairs.  

well ignorance is everywhere and the only way to not be duped is to educate yourself but even educated people will fall for these pairs sometimes, but... most consumers do not buy shoes to collect them, they wear them into the ground and move on to the next so i would actually hope that they receive the GM pair because of them being better quality and they will enjoy the product more.

 

[rcjbbp1313]

you may be a little optimistic with the assumption the GM pair will be better.

these pairs have no quality control on them and are highly likely to have some imperfections you cant deal with. someone sold me some early release concord XIs and the patent leather looked like it was folded before being installed on the shoe.
its a roll of the dice to be honest.

the other thing is, can you honestly live with the concept of telling a buyer that the shoes are not sanctioned by nike and are unauthorized if you decide to sell them down the road? it all comes down to morality.

it is morality but in all honesty unless you bought the pair from the store yourself you might as well never cop shoes again unless when u sell them everytime you say "i dont really know if these are authentic" this has affected the shoe collecting hobby so much that unless they are baltently obvious they are fake (i say fake meaning not real CF etc) then they cant be proved otherwise since JBs quality control is getting out of hand anyways that some shoes have come out worse than bad GM shoes. If your scared to buy a GM then stop buying anything other than retail cuz receipts can be had for their real pair and given to you for their GM pair they sold you.

 

[Sir chief a lot]

ok so you missed out on a release and are forced to go to ebay/reseller for the shoes, would you rather:
A. Buy the real deal with a receipt with subpar quality or
B. Pay the same as A but get better quality and a better looking shoe but not "sanctioned" by nike/JB?

i choose B.

i highly doubt theyre using better material to make unauthorized pairs

 

[rcjbbp1313]

i highly doubt theyre using better material to make unauthorized pairs

true, same quality material but made more to OG form i guess would be more correct but still a better looking shoe which is what retros should be, not the best performing shoe but atleast a good looking shoe not so cheapo and horrible form.

 

[freshsteez]

well ignorance is everywhere and the only way to not be duped is to educate yourself but even educated people will fall for these pairs sometimes, but... most consumers do not buy shoes to collect them, they wear them into the ground and move on to the next so i would actually hope that they receive the GM pair because of them being better quality and they will enjoy the product more.

I agree with it getting tougher to tell these days.  I also think it would be beneficial to all of us if more people knew the difference between an authentic and unauthorized pair.  While, there are some people buying unauthorized pairs knowingly, there must be far more that are buying them unknowingly.  Many people that bought them unknowingly would not have bought them had they known.  If everybody knew the difference, prices would certainly drop on unauthorized pairs and in the end everybody wins.  Those who want to buy unauthorized will get their shoes cheaper and those who don't want to touch them won't buy them unknowingly and end up flipping on the resell market and screwing someone else over.  This is why I believe awareness is good for everybody.

 

[bigj505]

you may be a little optimistic with the assumption the GM pair will be better.

these pairs have no quality control on them and are highly likely to have some imperfections you cant deal with. someone sold me some early release concord XIs and the patent leather looked like it was folded before being installed on the shoe.
its a roll of the dice to be honest.

the other thing is, can you honestly live with the concept of telling a buyer that the shoes are not sanctioned by nike and are unauthorized if you decide to sell them down the road? it all comes down to morality.

it is morality but in all honesty unless you bought the pair from the store yourself you might as well never cop shoes again unless when u sell them everytime you say "i dont really know if these are authentic" this has affected the shoe collecting hobby so much that unless they are baltently obvious they are fake (i say fake meaning not real CF etc) then they cant be proved otherwise since JBs quality control is getting out of hand anyways that some shoes have come out worse than bad GM shoes. If your scared to buy a GM then stop buying anything other than retail cuz receipts can be had for their real pair and given to you for their GM pair they sold you.

One view you have is saying we can't verify a GM pair because its what's being produced. Then the next view says they are made more like the OG which contradicts statement A

 

[budgy]

I've resisted posting for a long time but finally gonna chip in as Fresh has pretty much stated exactly what I think so want to step in to back him up.

I personally use authentic and authorised interchangeably.  If they're authorised then they are authentic and therefore genuine, ie not fake.  If they're not authorised then they may as well be fake.

These "just in case" pairs are never intended to be released.  They're only meant to be 54 pairs and as they are not part of that authorised 54 they are unauthorised and therefore tantamount to being fake.  It doesn't matter that they were made by the same people using the same materials.  It doesn't matter that it took 55 or even 10000 pairs to get to 54 satisfactory pairs.  Only 54 numbered pairs are allowed to exist, released to market.  All excess pairs should never ever see the light of day.  If somebody was to try and tell me that a pair outside of the Nike 54 was authentic then I would laugh in their face so yes I would consider them to be fake.  No matter how much people spin it, if they are not part of the limited run, read authorised, they hold no value compared to the real thing.  If people want to waste their money then they are welcome to it, but I would never pay above retail, I wouldn't even pay retail, for something that's not authentic.

Back in the day I used to hear "grey import" all the time, not "grey market".  The definition of this, to me at least, was the selling/exporting/importing of authorised, genuine, goods in an unofficially sanctioned, ie unauthorised, market.  Back in the day my experience of this was with genuine video games from Japan and USA being sold/imported into the UK.  These were products that were 100% authorised in their respective countries but were never officially available over here so people had no choice but to unofficially import.  To me the modern "grey market" is what "grey import" once was.  Back then the market was not as global as it is today.  You don't need a reseller to import something for you in an unauthorised way, an authorised retailer will do it for you - I got my Jordan XI low's sent to the UK by East Bay who are most definitely authorised.  I know I'm gonna get some hate and I don't care what wiki says - I pity the people that rely on it as the de-facto authority for these things - "grey market" for me is the selling of authorised/genuine goods outside of retail environment, eg the reseller market.  Everything else is just stupid.

People may hate on Nike for "operating sweat shops", but as people have already said, Nike do not own the factories that make their goods.  Whilst they are no doubt not helping, I don't see them as the main culprits of the sweat shop conditions so think what happens when the Nike contract has ended.  Do these places just let the employees stay after hours to do what they want?  Use the factory resources for their own profit?  Make these extra pairs for their own personal gain?  Somehow I don't think so.  They aren't co-op or fair trade factories.  They might get away with a little personal gain every so often but no on the scale that things appear to be happening.  The workers are still workers.  Somebody is pulling the strings and issuing orders, keeping things running, and I suspect there's a criminal element to it.  Personally I don't want to be part of the market that fuels this kind of thing.

 

[rcjbbp1313]

One view you have is saying we can't verify a GM pair because its what's being produced. Then the next view says they are made more like the OG which contradicts statement A

lol yeah i guess you can look at it that way but if they are the same materials then the average non OG hardcore collector couldnt tell the small details that make them "OG" or not. this topic will go around in circles forever just in morality reasons alone, i for one do not feel bad at all about these things being out if they are the same materials because in the end JB and nike are still making billions per year which is a little bit more than what i make.

 

[Sneaker P]

I sold one pair of my Royals. I told the person that RIF LA said they were legit, the seller said they were legit, but they could possibly be GM. He said they looked fine to him and thanked me for not charging rape price, but I was truthful about where/how I purchased them.

He paid $280 which I think is fair because I paid $300 and GM royals are going upwards of $300.

Now the struggle to find authorized pairs. I'm thinking about doing FlightClub, but could they have GM pairs too?

 

[shoegamenutz]

Saw this in another forum and though might be interesting for some people.

SO WHICH ONE IS WHICH?

FAKE - by definition means not authentic or genuine. Fake product is the term used for the illegal copying and manufacturing of name-brand products. In also goes by the other names like imitation, replicas, knockoffs or bootleg. BOOTLEGGING is to produce, reproduce and distribute without authorization or license. COUNTERFEIT is an imitation with intent of fraudulently passing it off as genuine. In essence Fake is a poor DUPLICATE of the genuine product.

For example, a Fake Jordan IV starts by obtaining an authentic Jordan IV (normally smuggled out from the original factory) to reverse engineer, make a mould and use inferior direct and indirect materials in the build. If you reproduce more Fake Jordan IV for distribution then you are BOOTLEGGING. If you intend to pass your FAKE Jordan IV as genuine, then you are COUNTERFEITING.

VARIANT is a sneaker with slight variation in the official product. Un-released official colorways that is not distributed to the public are also called Variants (like team college sneakers for players).

FACTORY VARIANTS can either be authentic (will discuss later) or fakes made to look different at factory level i.e. colorways or materials. Variants came into prominence in the sneaker hobby after Jordan retired for the 2nd time with the release of the Jordan XV. What’s ironic is variants pave way to Customization of sneakers and in a way, Nike ID.

HYBRIDS are sneakers made from two or more models fused together. In the 80s especially in Asia before Nike gave distribution rights, retailers buy straight from the factories. Any sneakers damaged in transit are fixed and glued together often times resulting in a sneaker with a different top or bottom. So these sneakers are usually one-offs and not necessarily fakes, it’s just the result of the retailer not wanting to lose a sale. Again, ironically, hybrids pave way to Nike fusions.

FACTORY SECONDS means imperfections found on the finish product which is also same as B-GRADES. B-Grades are sneakers that fail the quality inspection. There are two kinds of B-Grades.

FACTORY B-GRADES are sneakers that didn’t make the final cut in the manufacturing process i.e. factory, before shipment to the warehouse for distribution. Usually these sneakers are considered faulty and ‘written off’ (will discuss later).

OUTLET B-GRADES are finished sneakers shipped from the factory but failed the quality inspection for official distribution to the retailers-consumers. Failed units are usually sneakers with minor cosmetic flaws. Usually if one unit fails the inspection, 100 units before and after are taken out and considered B-Grades i.e. 1 fail unit = 201 B-Grades units to the outlets.


OK, SO WHERE DOES AIR-RANDY FIT IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS?

The best way to describe Air Randy, Marquesole etc is that they cater for the demand that never existed before in the sneaker industry. Can I coined this term or trademark it? LOL. Anyway, I call these sneakers == GREY SNEAKERS


GREY SNEAKERS?!! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SMOKING?!

You see, fake sneakers are one of the commodities found in the black market. A BLACK MARKET is the trade of goods and services that are illegal in themselves and/or distributed through illegal channels, such as the selling of stolen goods or counterfeits.

A GREY MARKET is the trade of a commodity through distribution channels which, while legal, are unofficial, unauthorized, or unintended by the original manufacturer. The term grey economy, however, refers to workers being paid under the table, without paying income taxes etc. It is sometimes referred to as the underground economy or "hidden economy".

So thats why I call them GREY SNEAKERS. It’s not fake because its authentic materials etc but not legit because it is un-authorised, un-sanctioned by Nike. These dont "exist" in a way because on paper these "excess units" (see factory B-Grades) are shown as defects and/or write offs in the manufacturing cost of the Chinese OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturers) when Nike does an audit.

Please picture this scenario.

1. Jordan Brand meeting in Jan 2011, OK’s the retro of the Air Jordan III in Holiday 2011. JB instructed the factory to make a ‘sample’.

2. Sample produced and shown in JB meeting in March 2011. JB’s approved the sample.

3. The sample and ‘TECH PACK’ are given to the OEM factory in June 2011 for mass production of say 1000 units for $XXX money.

4. The OEM factory was given 3 months from July to September 2011 to produce 1000 units.

5. The OEM factory allows OVERRUNS to compensate for possible faulty, defected units or Factory B-Grades. Therefore the factory produces 1000 units + OVERRUN units.

6. The OEM shows these OVERRUNS in the manufacturing cost as write-offs so on paper when Nike does an audit these are considered ‘destroyed’.

7. The OEM instead of ‘destroying’ the write-offs instead sell these units for extra $XXX. This is where Air-Randy etc comes in.

8. Usually the Air Randys get the first batch or the run of units thus the sneakers may look slighty different (see Variant as well) and different packaging and accessories (e.g. the shoe horn used is from previous stock).

9. Air Randy sells these units in July and September online to us, sneaker afficianados, which is the same timeline at the production time at the factory. THUS out in the streets months in advance of the official release date.

10. Once the OEM finished the order and shipped the 1000 units, they can be greedy and sell the TECH PACKS and SAMPLE to the counterfeit industry.

11. JB received the 1000 units in the warehouse in October. Looks for any potential outlet B-Grade units then distribute the remainder to the retailers for the Dec 2011 Holiday release.

Don’t be naïve to think that the Triads etc are not a part of this. They do in the Black Market but they are keeping an eye at the Grey Market as well.


NIKE SHOULD DO SOMETHING!

NOPE! This is the tradeoff for Nike outsourcing their intellectual property to countries with little or even no regard to patents/trademarks, brand protection and lax labour practices in the name of maximizing profits.

At the end of the day, Nike is not pursuing the Grey Market Merchants of the sneaker world like Air Randys and Marqueesoles. WHY?

1. It hardly put a dent on the $$$ billions gross sale profit of Nike

2. Sneakers worn out in the street months in advance of the release are UNPAID PUBLICITY and MARKETING. Nike is really a marketing company as well.


SO ARE THEY GOOD OR BAD?

These sneaker merchants see a market for these grey sneakers and they capitalise on it. It wise business move I say because if Air Randy dont, someone else will. If they stay in the grey market then IMO its all good but if they are doing counterfeiting then HATE HATE.

Again it really is a fine line. In the end we THE CONSUMER WINS because WE HAVE A CHOICE. However its CAVEAT EMPTOR. Let the buyer beware. IT IS WHAT IT IS.

 

[lewi1913]

The only thing I have gathered from the last 2 pages is that I want a Quarter Pounder with cheese...

 

[bigj505]

The only thing I have gathered from the last 2 pages is that I want a Quarter Pounder with cheese...

Lol

 

[michigan]

The problem as I said before is that people reselling these shoes are unlikely to mention where they attained them from and aren't telling people they are unauthorized pairs.  They are selling them as authentic.  That just doesn't sit right with me.  This is a problem for all of us who buy and resell shoes when the market is flooded with this stuff on it.  

I agree this is the big problem.  Say I miss a release for what ever reason and I still want to pick up the pair.  I can either pay crazy reseller prices from various internet sites or I can buy them off Ebay for reseller prices.   The messed up thing about all this is that those sites and the Ebay sellers that have full size runs are more then likely selling grey market pairs.    So instead of going through a middle man and paying jacked up prices I'm better off just going straight to the source myself and buying them from the china sites.  In the past I would never think of doing this but the shoe game is all messed up nowadays. 

  If I could pay a little over retail and know for a 100% fact they are an authorized pair I would just go that route but that doesn't exist anymore.

 

[cencal52]

anybody that has experience with purchasing concords or jordan 3 88 retro from a grey market site pm me

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

I've resisted posting for a long time but finally gonna chip in as Fresh has pretty much stated exactly what I think so want to step in to back him up.

I personally use authentic and authorised interchangeably.  If they're authorised then they are authentic and therefore genuine, ie not fake.  If they're not authorised then they may as well be fake.

These "just in case" pairs are never intended to be released.  They're only meant to be 54 pairs and as they are not part of that authorised 54 they are unauthorised and therefore tantamount to being fake.  It doesn't matter that they were made by the same people using the same materials.  It doesn't matter that it took 55 or even 10000 pairs to get to 54 satisfactory pairs.  Only 54 numbered pairs are allowed to exist, released to market.  All excess pairs should never ever see the light of day.  If somebody was to try and tell me that a pair outside of the Nike 54 was authentic then I would laugh in their face so yes I would consider them to be fake.  No matter how much people spin it, if they are not part of the limited run, read authorised, they hold no value compared to the real thing.  If people want to waste their money then they are welcome to it, but I would never pay above retail, I wouldn't even pay retail, for something that's not authentic.

Back in the day I used to hear "grey import" all the time, not "grey market".  The definition of this, to me at least, was the selling/exporting/importing of authorised, genuine, goods in an unofficially sanctioned, ie unauthorised, market.  Back in the day my experience of this was with genuine video games from Japan and USA being sold/imported into the UK.  These were products that were 100% authorised in their respective countries but were never officially available over here so people had no choice but to unofficially import.  To me the modern "grey market" is what "grey import" once was.  Back then the market was not as global as it is today.  You don't need a reseller to import something for you in an unauthorised way, an authorised retailer will do it for you - I got my Jordan XI low's sent to the UK by East Bay who are most definitely authorised.  I know I'm gonna get some hate and I don't care what wiki says - I pity the people that rely on it as the de-facto authority for these things - "grey market" for me is the selling of authorised/genuine goods outside of retail environment, eg the reseller market.  Everything else is just stupid.

People may hate on Nike for "operating sweat shops", but as people have already said, Nike do not own the factories that make their goods.  Whilst they are no doubt not helping, I don't see them as the main culprits of the sweat shop conditions so think what happens when the Nike contract has ended.  Do these places just let the employees stay after hours to do what they want?  Use the factory resources for their own profit?  Make these extra pairs for their own personal gain?  Somehow I don't think so.  They aren't co-op or fair trade factories.  They might get away with a little personal gain every so often but no on the scale that things appear to be happening.  The workers are still workers.  Somebody is pulling the strings and issuing orders, keeping things running, and I suspect there's a criminal element to it.  Personally I don't want to be part of the market that fuels this kind of thing.

I just don't agree with this. Like I said before the definition of authentic has to do with the ORIGIN. That's not my definition, that's webster's definition. A shoe doesn't magically become authentic because Nike just randomly says "okay, we can make money off of this now". Authorization does not in anyway equal authentication. And in no way do these shoes change once the officially get through "quality" control. Once the shoe is constructed no amount of authorization can change the actual product. You guys are arguing the legitimacy of the shoes that sparks the shoes origin. That's fine. That can be argued. You can even call them illegitimate because they're not authorized. But once you say they are fake or not authentic you're saying that they don't have the same orgins (materials, construction, quality, and durability) as the retail pairs and that is not the case. IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT THESE SHOES COME FROM THE SAME PLACE AND ARE MADE FROM THE SAME STUFF. How you or I see these shoes is irrelevant. Your interpretation of authentic is also irrelevant. Authentic means have an unquestionable origin. Although the reason why these shoes are being made is up for debate it does not factor into the shoes authenticity. Where and how they're being made is already established, known, and unquestioned. Origin of retail pair=Origin of grey market pair. Geeze. Stop letting morals and illegality (intangeable things) confuse you with the physically tangeable ones.

 

[lewi1913]

lol yeah i guess you can look at it that way but if they are the same materials then the average non OG hardcore collector couldnt tell the small details that make them "OG" or not. this topic will go around in circles forever just in morality reasons alone, i for one do not feel bad at all about these things being out if they are the same materials because in the end JB and nike are still making billions per year which is a little bit more than what i make.

Sorry I couldn't resist

Not that I disagree with you, just playing devil's advocate

View media item 462028

 

[bigj505]

 

[castomere]

These are now in the grey market.

 

[rupertpupkin]

those brons have BEEN in the grey market.  dudes been slangin em for $600+.

 

[deezrsackolishus]

And whoever paid next to nothing to get em.

 

[deezrsackolishus]

And whoever paid next to nothing to get em.

Someone down the line is cooking someone

 

[bigj505]

those brons have BEEN in the grey market.  dudes been slangin em for $600+.

this... nothing new. shoes been dropping early forever now.

 

[jacksodk]

I sold one pair of my Royals. I told the person that RIF LA said they were legit, the seller said they were legit, but they could possibly be GM. He said they looked fine to him and thanked me for not charging rape price, but I was truthful about where/how I purchased them.

He paid $280 which I think is fair because I paid $300 and GM royals are going upwards of $300.

Now the struggle to find authorized pairs. I'm thinking about doing FlightClub, but could they have GM pairs too?

Quite possible! Don't let people fool you like they have the "authorized" magic eye. No such thing. Shoes are the same. No way to tell if they came from a retail shop or out the backdoor of a Nike factory. Unless Nike about to start tagging or putting special chips in their shoes, I believe you will always be rolling the dice. Unless you wear a size 16-18

 

[rcjbbp1313]

Sorry I couldn't resist

Not that I disagree with you, just playing devil's advocate

View media item 462028

this is funny i literally LOL'd but like it has been said before its not stealing since the products are made after their contracted number of shoes is made and finished so its extra product and since their shoes are selling out first day anyway they are actaully losing zero money so its not stealing from JB as much as paying someone else for something unauthorized, now if i got the same thing for a shoe thats sitting and they are losing money on a shoe that would be horrible, either way its not great

 

[bigj505]

^^^ dude, its stealing. I think everyone but you agree to that.

The materials are stolen from Nike and sold without Nike's OK to do so.