DEFAULT...Student Loans

[moderndarwin]

I disagree.

Parents have their kids following their footsteps.

Go to college , make good grades, the rest will work itself out.

Only problem is dad had 3 offers in management when he graduated.

Son has a part time offer and $200 in cutlery to sell...

Because all the entry levelgigs require 2 years experience

That is completely not true. Anyone that goes to college, gets decent grades, does an internship or two gets job offers. The job may not be exactly what they want but it is likely enough to put food on the table. Our generation confuses our dreams with realities. If you have an iphone + the ridiculous monthly payment and complain about making student loan payments it just doesn't make any sense. It is unbelievable to me how poor our generation is at saving.

We didn't have to go through truly tough times so we never had that concept of living within our means ingrained in us. It took me $17,000 of credit card debt and $35,000 of student loan debt to even feel a hint of that desperation. I worked my way through it by learning to live within my means. Going out every weekend with my friends, eating out for every meal, having expensive cell phone plans etc are all privileges and not rights. Most college student nowadays have a car, a cell phone, a tv in their room, a computer, and a meal plan. The infrastructure provided them by these loans is unbelievable. It is our fault (and the society that breeds these beliefs) that we somehow have it "tough".

There is a charity that gives poverty level people in Eastern Africa 1 year of income with no strings attached. This means they don't have to live paycheck by paycheck. They unequivocally found that given this basic infrastructure all the families that received this improved in every area of life (education, healthcare, jobs, etc) a few years down the road. Just because we take a lot of what we consider "basics" for granted does not mean that we should support the continuation of it.

I lived a frivolous and extravagant lifestyle from 18 to 27. It took me under 2.5 years of being fiscally responsible to get ahead of it. It can be done, but it just requires a lot more self responsibility than people are willing to take.

 

[boris]

 

This is a passive way to deal with a bad situation. 

I am not trying to deal with the situation people are going to choose to do what they want regardless. My situation is good, the overall situation for the US educational system is pretty bad, but that isn't going to change. Until people start looking at alternatives and ways to make college affordable the system will always come out ahead.

 
So what about the average people that are smart with their money and make their money work for them?

Losing game too?

I also believe there are right majors to choose in terms of ROI, and long term growth. Its clear to see...

There is no doubt that the money is being spread unevenly. All we can do is be smart with our money and invest to end the cycle of 9-5 slaving.

It just sounds to me like you're shifting the focus away from correcting the problem and onto people to just deal with a broken system. I can't imagine you care to change anything since your situation is good. It's this mentality that won't change anything. 

 

[truth-serum]

This

They have sold everyone on the idea that a cheaper school = inferior education & inferior job opportunities .

 

[rexanglorum]

So what about the average people that are smart with their money and make their money work for them?
Losing game too?

I also believe there are right majors to choose in terms of ROI, and long term growth. Its clear to see...

There is no doubt that the money is being spread unevenly. All we can do is be smart with our money and invest to end the cycle of 9-5 slaving.

As far as personal advice is concerned, do what you see as the best for your situation. I am not advocating for anyone to give up even though the system is so unbalanced.

When it comes to public policy, I believe two important things on this topic. Personal advice does not equal sound public policy. I listen to a good deal of talk radio when I drive from Southern California up to Central California and what strikes me is how so many conservatives, especially blue collar, white men either will not or cannot think about economic problems systemically. The standard, talk radio solution to every single economic problem is "work harder," "go to college," "go to trade school," "get your CPA," "just follow David Ramsey's advice" ect.

At some point, it is the fault of the employers and the ruling class and not the fault of 18 to 25 year olds who have little money and no power.

Also, I think that the 90% of American Households that have to work for a living, should think of themselves as workers. There is no greater animus then that between the guy who makes $15 per hour and the guy who makes $12 per hour. I am amazed at how it is the guy who makes not much more than minimum wage who hates the idea of raising minimum wage. America is a strange country in that only the wealthy have class conciseness.

If you want the best ROI for your money, pick engineering. 9 of the 10 best paying jobs are engineers according to CNN

View media item 1573189


Here are the best schools for lifetime ROI according to Payscale.com

People frequently say that if you have to borrow money to go to school, major in a STEM field, especially engineering. Hey, I've even said it because if you do not have the social capital (a euphemism for one's ability to benefit from nepotism) to get a career going in law or finance, an engineering career is probably one's best bet for making a good salary. With that said, telling people to get engineering degrees does not constitute any sort of serious public policy solution to the problem of decreasing wages among college graduates.

First; if everyone went to college and got a degree in engineering, the wages of engineers would likely plummet. If every kid in America could get a 2400 on the SAT's, triple majored in physics, theoretical mathematics and engineering and then went to law school and business school, only a small number of those kids would get the extremely well paying jobs on Wall Street and at blue stocking law firms and most would be lucky to be making 30k per year in some crappy office job. The demand side, the number of jobs, of the labor supply-demand equation is as important as the supply side, the workers.

Also, we have to remember that when it comes to engineering, the reason why those majors make a lot of money is because the game is actually rigged in their favor. The US Tax payer spends a fortune on the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC) and that MIC hires a lot of engineers and that obviously raises the wages of engineers who do not even work in the MIC.

Suppose it is 2025, we have a new President and Congress and they decide that the US simply can not longer maintain its Empire and we cut the funding for the Military by 3/4, suddenly the starting of pay of engineering majors would be much closer to that of "under water basket weaving" grads (you know the people who keep Western Culture alive).

Finally, when we talk about the balance of supply and demand in the labor market, we are not just talking about wages, the cost of training assumed by the employer is determined by the supply and demand of labor as well. If we had an economy that favored workers, college graduates in non STEM fields would get hired on and taught particular skills at the expense of the employer.

In the late 1930's and early 1940's, the business establishment agreed that the reason for chronic unemployment was because many Americans simply lacked the skills to work in the modern work place. Pearl Harbor happened, total mobilization happened, a negative unemployment rate happened, labor had leverage and suddenly the nation's employers actually did have the money to train people without college degrees to be engineers. Heck, within six months after pearl harbor, we trained people with Middle School educations and housewives how to engage in very sophisticated industrial work.

Under our current system, the employers have too much leverage and they expect potential employees to assume all of the cost and risk of obtaining human capital and that is not a good system. If 18 to 21 year olds are not legally responsible enough to buy beer, they should be expected to either outsmart future labor markets or live the rest of your lives with crippling debt.

 

[obeahmyal7]

At some point, it is the fault of the employers and the ruling class and not the fault of 18 to 25 year olds who have little money and no power.

Also, I think that the 90% of American Households that have to work for a living, should think of themselves as workers. There is no greater animus then that between the guy who makes $15 per hour and the guy who makes $12 per hour. I am amazed at how it is the guy who makes not much more than minimum wage who hates the idea of raising minimum wage. America is a strange country in that only the wealthy have class conciseness.

Under our current system, the employers have too much leverage and they expect potential employees to assume all of the cost and risk of obtaining human capital and that is not a good system. If 18 to 21 year olds are not legally responsible enough to buy beer, they should be expected to either outsmart future labor markets or live the rest of your lives with crippling debt.

Excellent post. Your insight about class consciousness is well taken.

Middle class Americans (forgive the broad strokes) assume the distance between themselves and the working poor is far greater than that between they and the wealthy. I suspect this is why a number of folks in this thread harangue about the subjective responsibilities of debtors.

The elision of any discussion of how student debt is part of a broader political economic program of perpetual indebtedness is astounding. 

 

[moderndarwin]

Excellent post. Your insight about class consciousness is well taken.

Middle class Americans (forgive the broad strokes) assume the distance between themselves and the working poor is far greater than that between they and the wealthy. I suspect this is why a number of folks in this thread harangue about the subjective responsibilities of debtors.

The elision of any discussion of how student debt is part of a broader political economic program of perpetual indebtedness is astounding. 

This is 100% spot on (and what you were referencing). However, it shows that the problem is not with the education system or student loans but rather the set of beliefs of Americans in general. All we see are Facebook highlight reels, Instagram celebrities and Shark Tank successes. Somehow, our middle class aligns their mentality with the 1% of elite rather than the true economic reality that we (middle-class) is closer to poverty than to wealth.

It is not fair to Americans to have to sort this out themselves though. I only could see this because I traveled abroad and saw that our way of life is not necessarily a reality in other countries. In many other countries the middle class standard of living is quite high because of the belief in supporting each other. American individualism demands elitism over societal good. Crazy to me how the same education can be free in Germany and Denmark that we charge thousands of dollars for.

Btw, for anyone that is under 18 please be aware that you can go to college for free in Germany. Even for international students college is free. A lot more people are doing it nowadays.

 

[fontaine]

As far as personal advice is concerned, do what you see as the best for your situation. I am not advocating for anyone to give up even though the system is so unbalanced.

When it comes to public policy, I believe two important things on this topic. Personal advice does not equal sound public policy. I listen to a good deal of talk radio when I drive from Southern California up to Central California and what strikes me is how so many conservatives, especially blue collar, white men either will not or cannot think about economic problems systemically. The standard, talk radio solution to every single economic problem is "work harder," "go to college," "go to trade school," "get your CPA," "just follow David Ramsey's advice" ect.

At some point, it is the fault of the employers and the ruling class and not the fault of 18 to 25 year olds who have little money and no power.

Also, I think that the 90% of American Households that have to work for a living, should think of themselves as workers. There is no greater animus then that between the guy who makes $15 per hour and the guy who makes $12 per hour. I am amazed at how it is the guy who makes not much more than minimum wage who hates the idea of raising minimum wage. America is a strange country in that only the wealthy have class conciseness.
People frequently say that if you have to borrow money to go to school, major in a STEM field, especially engineering. Hey, I've even said it because if you do not have the social capital (a euphemism for one's ability to benefit from nepotism) to get a career going in law or finance, an engineering career is probably one's best bet for making a good salary. With that said, telling people to get engineering degrees does not constitute any sort of serious public policy solution to the problem of decreasing wages among college graduates.

First; if everyone went to college and got a degree in engineering, the wages of engineers would likely plummet. If every kid in America could get a 2400 on the SAT's, triple majored in physics, theoretical mathematics and engineering and then went to law school and business school, only a small number of those kids would get the extremely well paying jobs on Wall Street and at blue stocking law firms and most would be lucky to be making 30k per year in some crappy office job. The demand side, the number of jobs, of the labor supply-demand equation is as important as the supply side, the workers.

Also, we have to remember that when it comes to engineering, the reason why those majors make a lot of money is because the game is actually rigged in their favor. The US Tax payer spends a fortune on the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC) and that MIC hires a lot of engineers and that obviously raises the wages of engineers who do not even work in the MIC.

Suppose it is 2025, we have a new President and Congress and they decide that the US simply can not longer maintain its Empire and we cut the funding for the Military by 3/4, suddenly the starting of pay of engineering majors would be much closer to that of "under water basket weaving" grads (you know the people who keep Western Culture alive).

Finally, when we talk about the balance of supply and demand in the labor market, we are not just talking about wages, the cost of training assumed by the employer is determined by the supply and demand of labor as well. If we had an economy that favored workers, college graduates in non STEM fields would get hired on and taught particular skills at the expense of the employer.

In the late 1930's and early 1940's, the business establishment agreed that the reason for chronic unemployment was because many Americans simply lacked the skills to work in the modern work place. Pearl Harbor happened, total mobilization happened, a negative unemployment rate happened, labor had leverage and suddenly the nation's employers actually did have the money to train people without college degrees to be engineers. Heck, within six months after pearl harbor, we trained people with Middle School educations and housewives how to engage in very sophisticated industrial work.

Under our current system, the employers have too much leverage and they expect potential employees to assume all of the cost and risk of obtaining human capital and that is not a good system. If 18 to 21 year olds are not legally responsible enough to buy beer, they should be expected to either outsmart future labor markets or live the rest of your lives with crippling debt.

I repped, UN repped, then re repped.

Excellent post

 

[sunshineblotters]

Sign up for Pay as You Earn or some form of income based repayment if your loans are federal. Cut my monthly student loan payments in half.

This is great advice for those earning less than they can handle for student loans. Also 25 years of on time payment and the rest is forgiven. Some people just have to accept they wont be able to pay back the loan so they should do the 25 years of min payments.

 

[sunshineblotters]

First; if everyone went to college and got a degree in engineering, the wages of engineers would likely plummet. If every kid in America could get a 2400 on the SAT's, triple majored in physics, theoretical mathematics and engineering and then went to law school and business school, only a small number of those kids would get the extremely well paying jobs on Wall Street and at blue stocking law firms and most would be lucky to be making 30k per year in some crappy office job. The demand side, the number of jobs, of the labor supply-demand equation is as important as the supply side, the workers.

Also, we have to remember that when it comes to engineering, the reason why those majors make a lot of money is because the game is actually rigged in their favor. The US Tax payer spends a fortune on the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC) and that MIC hires a lot of engineers and that obviously raises the wages of engineers who do not even work in the MIC.

Suppose it is 2025, we have a new President and Congress and they decide that the US simply can not longer maintain its Empire and we cut the funding for the Military by 3/4, suddenly the starting of pay of engineering majors would be much closer to that of "under water basket weaving" grads (you know the people who keep Western Culture alive).

Everyone should read this post. If you want a modern day equivalent to this ask lawyers. Even law schools have admitted they are pumping out way too many degrees. The 80% pass rate for the BAR exam is not helping them either. Many lawers follow the "Work harder, go to college, etc" advice and come up SHORT.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...ting-law-school-grads/276463/?utm_source=SFFB

Leichter finds that law schools graduated roughly two students for every one estimated job opening. But there were some enormous variations. In Mississippi, the ratio was 10.53 to 1. In Michigan, it was 6.48 to 1. In New Jersey, by comparison, it was just 1.04 to 1.

The field of law is so saturated that some places in America pump out 11 lawyers for every job opening.

But since many are willing to relocate your need to look at the statistic by region, not state. (Not country either, since very few law schools have that type of reach)

New England: 2.99
Great Lakes: 2.95
Plains: 2.41
Mid-Atlantic: 2.04
Southeast: 1.92
Far West: 1.91
Southwest 1.41
Rocky Mountains: 1.31

This is exactly why many lawyers spend 4 years in undergrad followed by 3 years in law school just to make $15 an hour, a figure that many think should be the minimum wage.

 

[luckyluchiano]

Folks kill me telling everyone to major in STEM, lol if it was easy everyone would. STEM aint for everyone just like COLLEGE isnt for everyone, lotta folks go and get in debt just for the experience thats their damn problem. Imo we end up sending kids to college who have no business going. Imo it would be more beneficial to learn a trade and just do college part time if you want to get a degree in something that is non stem but your passion. If i see my kid isnt cut out for college i wont push them to go, but then again i plan on having businesses to pass down as an option for them also.

 

[cobra kai]

Let's get the thread back on track about paying back student loans.

What will income based payments do to my credit score?
Does it show I'm making the same monthly payments as a regular holding?

 

[c hanna]

Either find a way to pay for it or don't go

possibly the worst post i've seen in the 10 years ive been here

 

[Xennial]

possibly the worst post i've seen in the 10 years ive been here

I don't know why ppl think it's absurd to actually have to pay for something they want

 

[tay1]

Folks kill me telling everyone to major in STEM, lol if it was easy everyone would. STEM aint for everyone just like COLLEGE isnt for everyone, lotta folks go and get in debt just for the experience thats their damn problem. Imo we end up sending kids to college who have no business going. Imo it would be more beneficial to learn a trade and just do college part time if you want to get a degree in something that is non stem but your passion. If i see my kid isnt cut out for college i wont push them to go, but then again i plan on having businesses to pass down as an option for them also.

College is for everyone. Most people just don't have the will to get through it.

 

[RustyShackleford]

possibly the worst post i've seen in the 10 years ive been here

I don't know why ppl think it's absurd to actually have to pay for something they want

By your logic, people should never take out auto loans, and all homes must be bought without mortgages.

 

[Xennial]

By your logic, people should never take out auto loans, and all homes must be bought without mortgages.

And is that so bad?

 

[RustyShackleford]

By your logic, people should never take out auto loans, and all homes must be bought without mortgages.

And is that so bad?

Is that a serious question?

How many cars and houses you think would get sold if everyone tried that? It would literally crash the economy brah

 

[mr jordan04]

Rack up debt for a worthless major then blame others brehs.

People going to school for the "college life" and leaving with a worthless degree. People gotta put some more thought into their life decisions and stop blaming others or finding excuses.

 

[ace rawstein]

the engineering talk is kinda of funny to me. I have several of my closest friends finish with engineering degrees and most of them hated the work.

like dont get me wrong...the pay was def there but they already realized by 25 that they didnt like it. most went back to graduate school for something they really cared about.

 

[Xennial]

This country already has the 2nd most engineering grads in the world  ttp://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/06/09/the-countries-with-the-most-engineering-graduates-infographic/?ss=lists

 

[sea manup]

Folks kill me telling everyone to major in STEM, lol if it was easy everyone would. STEM aint for everyone just like COLLEGE isnt for everyone, lotta folks go and get in debt just for the experience thats their damn problem. Imo we end up sending kids to college who have no business going. Imo it would be more beneficial to learn a trade and just do college part time if you want to get a degree in something that is non stem but your passion. If i see my kid isnt cut out for college i wont push them to go, but then again i plan on having businesses to pass down as an option for them also.

College is for everyone. Most people just don't have the will to get through it.

As someone that dropped out I can confirm that it is not for everyone.

just because not everyone has the will to go through something doesn't mean it's worth doing. College as a whole is a rip off

 

[luckyluchiano]

As someone that dropped out I can confirm that it is not for everyone.

just because not everyone has the will to go through something doesn't mean it's worth doing. College as a whole is a rip off

lol dude sounded silly, if one does not have the will do to something it isn't for them, his statement was idiotic.

 

[sneakerreaper]

I'm not sure why people are not considering engineering. I did electrical engineering. I make very good money. Even with my higher than average salary, I still get my loans lowered with income based repayment.

You can get your loans lowered. Just do it. You have them at this point. Either keep paying the current amount or get them lowered through some of these programs. They aren't going away.

STEM is very difficult. The math alone weeds out over 60% of students (by my estimate). The thing I've seen is our generation quits too easily. When work gets difficult and the instant gratification isn't there, folks drop out. If you put in the time and work, you will get paid very well in the end.

 

[clyde the glide]

 
College is for everyone. Most people just don't have the will to get through it.

what on earth makes u say this?

 

[luckyluchiano]

I'm not sure why people are not considering engineering. I did electrical engineering. I make very good money. Even with my higher than average salary, I still get my loans lowered with income based repayment.

You can get your loans lowered. Just do it. You have them at this point. Either keep paying the current amount or get them lowered through some of these programs. They aren't going away.

STEM is very difficult. The math alone weeds out over 60% of students (by my estimate). The thing I've seen is our generation quits too easily. When work gets difficult and the instant gratification isn't there, folks drop out. If you put in the time and work, you will get paid very well in the end.

STEM is Hard thats why everyone isn't doing it. Our Education system doesn't prep kids at all to think the way you need to when it comes to STEM related areas also. Granted I have a STEM and would not recommend College from the jump to anyone not seeking a related degree. lol