2016 MLB thread. THE CUBS HAVE BROKEN THE CURSE! Chicago Cubs are your 2016 World Series champions

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bagwell was juiced up. that astros team back in the day was all juiced....gonzo, caminity, bagwell....
 
Bagwell should not be in the HOF, he falls short in my opinion. He was good but not a HOFer. He and Ivan were 1000% on juice as well.

I saw the second half of Raines career so I didn't see enough of him.
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I'm on the fence with a lot of these guys coming down the pipe now. The question to me is if guys are basically borderline, are they then in? Because that's what everyone wants now and there isn't much of a borderline anymore with the way voting is going now and in the future with all these new WAR guys voting. The floor will keep lowering. Maybe it should...I don't know. Everyone now seems all about letting as many close guys in as we can.

I'm old enough to have experienced most of these guys' full careers and Bagwell has the numbers, and yes was likely juiced up, but I dunno.

Edgar Martinez - great hitter. Did anyone ever scream HOFer when he was playing? Outside of Seattle....not really. He looks to be getting in shortly.

WAR guys now all seem to be blogging about getting Larry Walker in. Walker was one of my favorite players....but HOFer? Come on.

Tim Raines was a stud in his prime years, and is 5th in career steals. But he was still hovering around 22% of the vote his second year on the ballot. He then climbs to 86% this year and he's in.

People say roids don't matter in HOF cases...but when I look at the candidacy of a guy like Fred McGriff....they do. Crimedog likely is never getting in and he most likely never touched a thing. Give him a PED routine under the table in his 30's and the dude is walking into the HOF probably first ballot. That's what is sad.
 
RyGuy45 said:
WAR guys now all seem to be blogging about getting Larry Walker in. Walker was one of my favorite players....but HOFer? Come on.
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What is the argument against Larry Walker?


Not really sure how you can advocate for Mcgriff and not walker.


Had worse numbers playing an easier defensive position.
 
Actually, I never said McGriff should be in. I said he would be if he juiced, and that's a sad thing for him.

Larry Walker was a nice player, actually a great player and damn good outfielder as we know, but I'll let Tom Verducci speak on some key points:

The splits in Denver and otherwise are bothersome: Walker hit 98 points higher in Denver than elsewhere (.380 vs. .282) and hit home runs 49% more often in the Mile High City (one every 13.95 at-bats vs. 20.8 ). But here are the biggest reasons he comes up short: reliability and longevity. He played 145 games only once. He never played back-to-back seasons with 140 games. He has only 2,160 hits and 1,988 games played, far short of Hall of Fame standards. The BBWAA never has elected a rightfielder with fewer than 2,500 hits or 2,500 games.
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RyGuy45 said:
 
Bagwell should not be in the HOF, he falls short in my opinion. He was good but not a HOFer. He and Ivan were 1000% on juice as well.

I saw the second half of Raines career so I didn't see enough of him.
Click to expand...
I'm on the fence with a lot of these guys coming down the pipe now. The question to me is if guys are basically borderline, are they then in? Because that's what everyone wants now and there isn't much of a borderline anymore with the way voting is going now and in the future with all these new WAR guys voting. The floor will keep lowering. Maybe it should...I don't know. Everyone now seems all about letting as many close guys in as we can.

I'm old enough to have experienced most of these guys' full careers and Bagwell has the numbers, and yes was likely juiced up, but I dunno.

Edgar Martinez - great hitter. Did anyone ever scream HOFer when he was playing? Outside of Seattle....not really. He looks to be getting in shortly.

WAR guys now all seem to be blogging about getting Larry Walker in. Walker was one of my favorite players....but HOFer? Come on.

Tim Raines was a stud in his prime years, and is 5th in career steals. But he was still hovering around 22% of the vote his second year on the ballot. He then climbs to 86% this year and he's in.

People say roids don't matter in HOF cases...but when I look at the candidacy of a guy like Fred McGriff....they do. Crimedog likely is never getting in and he most likely never touched a thing. Give him a PED routine under the table in his 30's and the dude is walking into the HOF probably first ballot. That's what is sad.
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This post echoes my opinion.  THe Hall of Fame is quickly going to become the Hall of Very Good soon.   It has already started.  
 
Y'all really think Bagwell isn't HOF worthy? :lol:

His numbers compared to his peers are pretty impressive...

400

400

400

400


Those are def HOF numbers
 
RyGuy45 said:
Actually, I never said McGriff should be in. I said he would be if he juiced, and that's a sad thing for him.

Larry Walker was a nice player, actually a great player and damn good outfielder as we know, but I'll let Tom Verducci speak on some key points:
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[

1. You have no idea if Mcgriff juiced or didn't.

2. Not buying those Vurducci points.

a) most hitters play better at home than away. Why is it we only punish rockies for this? the coors feild bias has gone way way too far.

b) its not like his value is tied up entirley in his hitting, he was an awesoe all around player; great baserunner, cannon arm, really good feilder.

c) yeah he was injury prone but he still acrued more value than hall of game players who played more games.



also its completely bizzare to me how anyone votes Vlad and not walker. Vlad might have been more fun to watch but it seems pretty clear to me that he was better at basically everything.
 
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You dont buy those Verducci points because once you are locked in on the player should be in, you won't hear anything to the contrary. That's fine - that's how sports arguments seem to work in here.

But the Coors bias has gone too far? Hmmmm....For fun's sake, let's check out this year's inductees splits, alongside Larry Walker and let's also throw in Todd Helton.

Jeff Bagwell
Home - 1083 G, 234 HR, 779 RBI, .303 BA, .417 OBP, .560 SLG, .978 OPS
Away - 1044 G, 215 HR, 750 RBI, .291 BA, .398 OBP, .521 SLG, .919 OPS

Ivan Rodriguez
Home - 1274 G, 162 HR, 705 RBI, .308 BA, .345 OBP, .482 SLG, .827 OPS
Away - 1269 G, 149 HR, 627 RBI, .285 BA, .322 OBP, .447 SLG, .769 OPS

Tim Raines
Home - 1256 G, 83 HR, 465 RBI, .299 BA, .394 OBP, .432 SLG, .825 OPS
Away - 1246 G, 87 HR, 515 RBI, .289 BA, .378 OBP, .419 SLG, .796 OPS

Larry Walker
Home - 986 G, 215 HR, 747 RBI, .348 BA, .431 OBP, .637 SLG, 1.068 OPS
Away - 1002 G, 168 HR, 564 RBI, .278 BA, .370 OBP, .495 SLG, .865 OPS

Todd Helton
Home - 848 G, 177 HR, 696 RBI, .328 BA, .365 OBP, .573 SLG, .938 OPS
Away - 856 G, 97 HR, 445 RBI, .269 BA, .306 OBP, .424 SLG, .730 OPS


The problem here with HOF conversation is that people think because someone says "Player A probably isn't a HOFer" that means we say the player wasn't very good. It's possible to be fringe and not take that as a knock on the player. And Walker should never have to apologize for playing in Denver, I am clear on that. He was fun as hell to watch!
 
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Both guys have 60 point differences in their on base percentage :lol:

I'm sure Coors Field had nothing to do with that...







And Bagwell played in the massive Astrodome for a decade :lol:
 
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