Advanced Statistics vol. NBA

everysingletime · Jan 20, 2011

Any of you numbers afficionados care to break down some statistics to me?

Some statistics I think I get like PER, , blocks percentages, steals percentages, usage rating, true shooting percentages, how they're calculated, what they mean, etc.

But does anyone care to break down the following, how it's calculated, etc, in a way that it's easy for me to understand without my brain exploding.

Win Shares
Offensive Win Shares
Defensive Win Shares
Defensive Rating
Offensive Rating

The reason why I ask is because I went on basketball-reference.com to compare some players. And I notice how player A can have a higher defensive rating than player B but player B can have more defensive win shares than player A. It's just perplexing.

That's just one example of things that get me confused.

everysingletime · Jan 20, 2011

Any of you numbers afficionados care to break down some statistics to me?

Some statistics I think I get like PER, , blocks percentages, steals percentages, usage rating, true shooting percentages, how they're calculated, what they mean, etc.

But does anyone care to break down the following, how it's calculated, etc, in a way that it's easy for me to understand without my brain exploding.

Win Shares
Offensive Win Shares
Defensive Win Shares
Defensive Rating
Offensive Rating

The reason why I ask is because I went on basketball-reference.com to compare some players. And I notice how player A can have a higher defensive rating than player B but player B can have more defensive win shares than player A. It's just perplexing.

That's just one example of things that get me confused.

nicedudewithnicedreams · Jan 20, 2011

*paging OKB*

nicedudewithnicedreams · Jan 20, 2011

*paging OKB*

JD617 · Jan 20, 2011

And I notice how player A can have a higher defensive rating than player B but player B can have more defensive win shares than player A. It's just perplexing.
That's because for defensive rating, lower = better. It's an estimate of how many points a player gives up per 100 possessions.

JD617 · Jan 20, 2011

And I notice how player A can have a higher defensive rating than player B but player B can have more defensive win shares than player A. It's just perplexing.
That's because for defensive rating, lower = better. It's an estimate of how many points a player gives up per 100 possessions.

pmatic · Jan 20, 2011

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

*paging OKB*

and abovelegit1.

pmatic · Jan 20, 2011

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

*paging OKB*

and abovelegit1.

mayhemmonkey000 · Jan 20, 2011

All I know is someone in the Melo thread said Deng is better then Melo using advanced stats as an example. I don't even know what to believe anymore...

mayhemmonkey000 · Jan 20, 2011

All I know is someone in the Melo thread said Deng is better then Melo using advanced stats as an example. I don't even know what to believe anymore...

everysingletime · Jan 20, 2011

Originally Posted by JD617

And I notice how player A can have a higher defensive rating than player B but player B can have more defensive win shares than player A. It's just perplexing.

Click to expand...

That's because for defensive rating, lower = better. It's an estimate of how many points a player gives up per 100 possessions.

Ohh ok.

everysingletime · Jan 20, 2011

Originally Posted by JD617

And I notice how player A can have a higher defensive rating than player B but player B can have more defensive win shares than player A. It's just perplexing.

Click to expand...

That's because for defensive rating, lower = better. It's an estimate of how many points a player gives up per 100 possessions.

Ohh ok.

everysingletime · Jan 20, 2011

Originally Posted by MayhemMonkey000

All I know is someone in the Melo thread said Deng is better then Melo using advanced stats as an example. I don't even know what to believe anymore...

Yea that's a little OD. That's part of the reason why I wanna understand these things.

everysingletime · Jan 20, 2011

Originally Posted by MayhemMonkey000

All I know is someone in the Melo thread said Deng is better then Melo using advanced stats as an example. I don't even know what to believe anymore...

Yea that's a little OD. That's part of the reason why I wanna understand these things.

frank 7he t4nk · Jan 20, 2011

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

*paging OKB*

frank 7he t4nk · Jan 20, 2011

Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams

*paging OKB*

CP1708 · Jan 20, 2011

*Paging CP*

CP1708 · Jan 20, 2011

*Paging CP*

abovelegit1 · Jan 20, 2011

Here you go: http://www.basketball-ref....com/about/glossary.html

There are links explaining the methodology and formulas to everything in there. Ortg and Drtg are just points produced and allowed per 100 possessions, respectively.

Here's the win share page: http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Honestly though, in terms of defense, the eye test will always be the superior method of evaluation, IMO. That's because in both individual and team defense, the MAIN factor that goes into it is effort, and then the fundamentals. Basically every coach would agree with that. And the only way to evaluate effort is to watch on a consistent basis, and then ascertain whether or not player X is going through the motions, or actually trying.

Also, teams have MUCH better statistics for defense that they track, but don't release to the public. Examples of such include deflections, shots contested, percentage of shots contested, rotations missed/made, etc. So for our purposes of debating/evaluating, we use what we have available to us, and that includes statistics, watching games, etc.

abovelegit1 · Jan 20, 2011

Here you go: http://www.basketball-ref....com/about/glossary.html

There are links explaining the methodology and formulas to everything in there. Ortg and Drtg are just points produced and allowed per 100 possessions, respectively.

Here's the win share page: http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Honestly though, in terms of defense, the eye test will always be the superior method of evaluation, IMO. That's because in both individual and team defense, the MAIN factor that goes into it is effort, and then the fundamentals. Basically every coach would agree with that. And the only way to evaluate effort is to watch on a consistent basis, and then ascertain whether or not player X is going through the motions, or actually trying.

Also, teams have MUCH better statistics for defense that they track, but don't release to the public. Examples of such include deflections, shots contested, percentage of shots contested, rotations missed/made, etc. So for our purposes of debating/evaluating, we use what we have available to us, and that includes statistics, watching games, etc.

addict4sneakers · Jan 20, 2011

i understand their purpose.....sometimes.

but comments like the above mentioned take away from their credibility

addict4sneakers · Jan 20, 2011

i understand their purpose.....sometimes.

but comments like the above mentioned take away from their credibility

everysingletime · Jan 20, 2011

I've seen that link before. It was somewhat helpful but I was hoping for a concise analysis of how these stats are calculated.

everysingletime · Jan 20, 2011

I've seen that link before. It was somewhat helpful but I was hoping for a concise analysis of how these stats are calculated.

abovelegit1 · Jan 20, 2011

I'll paraphrase:

Offensive Rating = (Points Produced / Individual Possessions) x 100
Points can be produced through FGs, FTs, assists, and offensive rebounds. Individual possessions are the sum of a player's possessions (FGs, FTs, plus partial credit for assists), missed field goals and free throws that the defense rebounds, and TOs.

Defensive Rating = (Opponent's Points Allowed/ Opponent's Possessions) x 100. The result is the expected amount of points that an individual player will allow on defense over 100 possessions. This stat can be significantly influenced by the defense of a player's teammates.

Offensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal offense) / (marginal points per win). Marginal offense is equal to (points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions). Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)).

Defensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal defense) / (marginal points per win).
Marginal defense is equal to (player minutes played / team minutes played) * (team defensive possessions) * (1.08 * (league points per possession) - ((Defensive Rating) / 100)). Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)).

Wins Shares as a whole is just a sum of offensive and defensive win shares.